The Boris Bounce

2046 was the date for it to reach 68, which will now happen in 2039. It's inevitable that SPA will increase as life expectancy goes up, and that's fair.

 

He has indeed - I meant right winger in a Peter Mandelson sense rather than, say, a Keith Joseph one. Don't want to overly malign him!

My lazy stereotype was only in response to yours about woke leftie kids who don't understand workers' rights, and at least mine is sort of backed up by the facts if you look at the voting breakdown by age! I'm well aware that not all of you think the same way, but as an entire generation you guys certainly have some serious questions to answer.

Re. Baddiel and Corbyn, I haven't read the book, but the radio interview about it mostly dealt with the latent anti-semitism in the media, and how it's strange that it's the only type of racism that has traditionally been seen as OK because it 'punches up', which is in itself a nasty anti-semitic trope. I don't think he touched on the Labour party at all. Recalling the people I was with yesterday, I think we pretty much run the gamut from "Corbyn allowed himself to be surrounded by some unpleasant types and was too weak to properly deal with them" to "it's all made up by the media", but I think I'd be right in saying that we'd mostly agree on three things. First, there's a concerted effort to try and paint anti-zionism as in itself anti-semitic. Secondly, the anti-semitic tendency in Labour has always been there - way before Corbyn - and it does often come from anti-zionism, in that a few people misunderstand it and take it too far. Wherever I've seen it it's been shut down immediately. Thirdly, whatever truth there might be in the accusations, it was certainly seized upon by the right wing of the party and the media and blown out of all proportion. I think there's a reason why everybody who publically left the party over anti-semitism was far to the right, and it's certainly not that racism is peculiar to the left.

According to some, the whole issue with my wing of the party is that we're on the one hand too woke and relentlessly focused on identity politics, yet on the other are also somehow blind to one specific type of racism. That just doesn't make any sort of sense.

 

Voters weren't asking that of the Conservatives when they were imploding because they couldn't implement Brexit and fighting like rats in a sack over the leadership.

 

I agree with some of the sentiment, but some of it is heavy blue partizanship from a blue broadsheet.

I agree about the puritanism in labour, but how it downplays the disgrace of this current government and its acolytes, well, it loses any credibility after that point.

 

It has to happen because it becomes difficult to afford with people living longer. The state pensions have to come out of current tax, not what you paid in, is what I understand. So if you are working, you are paying the pensioners. Pensioner v workers numbers will increase in the near future i.e. more pensioners and thus meaning either more taxes, less pension and/or raising the age you will receive it.

 

I know. I said it needs to happen but it the changing of announced dates that is wrong.

 

I don’t think they did, the media thing is just a convenient excuse.
For one thing I think people exaggerate the influence of the media, but mainly because if enough people had truly believed in him and what he had to say they would have voted for him anyway, and in the end not enough did.

 

More people voted for Corbyn than came out for Miliband, Brown or two thirds of Blair. The only problem is that they didn't live in the right places.

 

Fred from Hartlepool on LBC radio yesterday praising the Tories because Hartlepool now has 9 food banks and under Labour they didn't have any.

That's why sometimes people 'sneer' at others.

 

Yes and the left killed it

 

I just want to take a step back and say that there are some really good posts in this thread. Largely its not got personal despite divergent views and there are a lot of perspectives offered.

What this thread has made me consider are two things. What would make me vote labour, but what I want from a government on a wider basis. From there, what are the common points that overlap with other voters and what aspects could I live with that may not be an ideal.

From a government. I want integrity and competence. I know there is a sliding scale and over time, there will always be crises and decisions that could be better and some forms of greed and corruption can manifest. There will always be those in power who seek it for personal gain. Whether you're Alexander DePfeffel Johnson, the PM, or Len McCluskey. Your badge colour doesn't necessarily mean integrity and there will be exceptions either way.

But thats not enough. It should be a given, but despite a significant fall in turnout (maybe a mix of weather, covid and apathy), it's not having a significant enough impact. People are eager to turn away from things, but that push won't direct them, there has to be a force of pull at work too.

So what do I want? Fairness. Equality. A country where people accept others and bigotry and the isms are lesser factors in what are seen every day. A country that isnt at each others throats and hatred lessens. Where anyone can get ahead through education and effort. Responsibility for actions. More support for localism and independents. Less waste. Less expansive consumption of resources. A detailed plan to do our bit to protect biodiversity, air quality, water quality our landscape and our habitat. Rid the world of plastics that harm.

A place where people are fairly rewarded for what they do and excess is restrained. But where people who risk it all to do well for themselves and their families aren't attacked for doing so. A level of taxation that allows investment in to the things people really need and the support that has to be there to increase living standards.

A country where people don't go hungry. But where we excessively indulge less for the good of ourselves, the environment and the health service. Food standards to be preserved and maintained as a minimum.

A country that plays its part in a bigger whole with honesty and transparency. With honour. That plays nicely with others, our close neighbours in particular and wins back lost respect. I want to be part of the EU, very much. At least part of freedom of movement, but as much as it pains me, that won't be on the agenda for a decade at least, though Scottish independence could speed that if they prosper.

There are many other things too, but that doesn't seem like a huge reach, and I know my priorities will be different to others. But surely in that starter of a list, there must be crossover with centre and left that could be popular enough if wrapped up in decency with good communication to claw back something?

I don't class myself as any particular point of a political spectrum. Corbyn has gone. So has Blair. We now have Starmer as Labour leader who is the only significant opposition to the populist far right. There needs to be hope. Hope is probably the most powerful thing a human being has. Hope. That tomorrow will be better, whatever the odds, whatever the circumstance.

So how do the centre and left channel our hope to collectively make tomorrow a better day?

 

Is that a phrase I used?
No; in fact it’s a million miles not just from my words, but from my point.

And as I keep saying here, I’m not picking sides, my point is that the biggest problem in Labour is the factions, and just reading through this thread lays it bare.

 

Good post.
In answer to your last point a rainbow coalition of red, yellow and green but it won't happen because too many would rather argue about who's a true socialist while the Tories run rampant and unopposed.

 

Have a read of the book, it’ll open your eyes, it’s not just the media, it’s not just the left, but what surprised me (being to the left of JC) is that there is a real issue on the left, and I thought, like you, that it was just a misunderstanding of anti Zionism.

 

Yes they were, they nearly lost an election to Corbyn.

 

But they didn't.

 

The difference is that Johnson's clique gained the upper hand and ruthlessly purged the moderate Tories. Corbyn would have done better to do that when he became leader, but he didn't. Now he's gone Keir ought to do that with the Corbyn sympathisers. If there were two parties more honestly representing their respective factions we'd see whether either side had sufficient electoral appeal.

 

True but Johnson did that after he was elected. And the 2017 election wasn't focused on anything other than getting Brexit done. Brexit could easily have been done much earlier done were it not for the years of Tory infighting.

 

People fought and died for the right to vote. I could never not vote, at the very worst I would write why I couldn't vote for a candidate on my ballot paper. And yes, unwound vote "least worse" to get rid of a failing , lying inept government.

 

Labour lost many voters by listening to the Bubble of London Labour and not the rest of the country. The other point is that Starmer when justice minister "covered up" the Asian sex grooming gangs for fear of stirring racism. Labour need a centrist.