Laurel Hubbard

How do you both feel about the term ‘womxn’?

 

Just my opinion (and I can see flaws in my argument even before I type) but.... 'Equality' in sport, as in so many thing in life, surely means everyone treated as equal. Now if that is carried to a logical conclusion then there would be no segregation based on sex , gender etc. and everyone, regardless of gender would compete in the same competition.

Obviously, that would mean in some sports, as a generalisation, women would be disadvantaged. Nevertheless, in sport many top women athletes would excel against men. The Bobby Riggs/Billie Jean King 'battle of the sexes exposed Riggs' chauvinist views that women could not handle the pressure of top competition and he was defeated by an 'inferior' woman. All this talk of 'equality' 'level playing field' glosses over the fact that biologically men and women are physically different. Neither, I hasten to add, are overall, inferior or superior since both have strengths and weaknesses. The problem in professional sport arises because elite athletes of both sexes are different from the average person largely due to the physical requirement of some sports. In those sports, the spectacle would be diminished if men were playing women. In many sports where physicality plays a smaller part and also in amateur sports many women can equal and beat men.

Outside of sport and looking at society in general, I do not understand the current obsession (exacerbated by certain sections the media and Social media) where people demand everyone be treated the same but then insist on labelling and highlighting that they are 'different' and want to be recognised as such. Trans, bi, Homosexual, Heterosexual, Lesbian and all the other labels and pre-fixes/titles that some people now insist on being addressed with seems to be a contradiction to that stated objective. When, I meet someone for the first time I take them at face value.. 'people are people'. However, if they take issue or exception to the way I address them e.g. 'we' then it instantly puts a 'negative' in my perception of that person and given what is happening in the World I have better things to do than engage with them and pander to their insecurity. In fairness it has only happened once to me but I am aware it is becoming more common. Since I do not openly go round stating I am heterosexual when I first meet someone, I do not see why some feel the need to raise their 'difference' at the first opportunity to draw attention to themselves?

 

Just how long did I go to sleep for when I went to bed what I thought was last night? Women aren't women any more, they're cis women? What does that even mean? And there's a bloke half a mile away from my house aiming a crossbow at the police. I definitely preferred life as it was yesterday. Are we still in the play offs?

 

Women are still women. Nobody is changing that.

Cis is just a term for people that are not trans. It’s not a replacement for the term women, it’s a specifier in the specific situations where a distinction is needed.

The crossbow **** is extremely scary.

I’ve just checked and yes, we’re still in the playoffs.

 

Would a decent analogy be sexuality? Some men are heterosexual men. Some men are homosexual men. All of them are still men. However, sometimes, a distinction needs to be made, so the two groups are referred to as heterosexual men and homosexual men. This doesn't change the normal phrasing, it's just for a specific use. It can also be applied to women, or people.

 

That’s a good example yes.

I think people would frown at “men and gay men” and rightly so. The same applies to “women and trans women”

 

I can't think of a situation where I'd have to make a distinction between straight and gay men. They're just men. Have you got an example?

 

Me personally? Probably not. I can see that there are times a distinction needs to be made though, for example if an article is reporting on statistics around prejudice faced by gay men.

By the same token I think it's very rare that I have to make a distinction personally between cis women and trans women. The discussion around sport is probably the only area where it's necessary for me I think.

I just know a fair amount of Trans people (the IT industry and related communities is often a home for people that have been made to feel like outcasts) and I think it's extremely sad the prejudice they face on a daily basis. The number of otherwise natural allies that are against them especially is very upsetting to me.

I'm not going to lie, I was in the same boat not too long ago on a lot of these issues. I've been educated a lot over the last 12+ months, as I've been spending more time talking to friends online and mixing with communities that I otherwise wouldn't have. If anyone is reading this and wants to learn more about the sort of stuff I'm referring to, ContraPoints on youtube is an incredible channel. She is a trans woman and she makes very high quality and highly educational videos that really opened my eyes to the struggles that trans people face. She also has an interesting take on a lot of it, partly because she's been on the other side of it. She was 'cancelled' by a portion of trans communities for associating with people that they thought undermined the trans cause. So basically she's not just going to preach at you and call you transphobic is what I'm trying to say. She explains it all far better than I could ever hope to.

 

Basically, what BarnsleyReds said. I can't really think of one where I'd need to use it in everyday life, nor can I for the difference between cis and trans.

However, to say that it doesn't exist is just dismissive and isn't true. It's a form of demographic, and can be used from anything from science and medicine (rates of depression?) to pop culture (approval ratings for TV shows) to marketing.

None of this is critical of either group, it just acknowledges that they exist in and of themselves and have differing characteristics.

The same could be applied to blue eyed men and brown eyed men, both fall under the umbrella of men, but with one differing characteristic. It's just that eye colour has little real world relevance so it's not examined - there's no prejudice based on it unlike sexuality or gender.

 

Out of interest, what are you as males prepared to do for the trans community or is it all falling to women? Tbh, some of the bullying and hectoring from SOME trans women when discussing issues of sports and safe spaces feels very male in tone.

 

I agree with Sharon Davies who's long spoken out about this topic and been called all sorts of vile stuff from people. Sport is suppose to be a level playing field and this isn't fair on those competing who were born female.

 

Sounds like a brand new way to label and discriminate to me.

 

This is the example I was going to post. I don’t care if you call me a woman, a cis woman, a straight woman or anything else that is factual and isn’t derogatory. I’m not sure why anyone would care.

 

How about gay men and straight women tend to have intercourse with men but gay women and straight men tend not to?
As far as I am concerned it's fine to use a clarifier about your sexuality in the same way it's fine to use one about your race or religion provided that it's not derogatory.
Jewish men are circumcised. Muslim men fast during Ramadan. BAME men are underrepresented in football coaching roles at an elite level.
Sometimes you need the distinction, but often you don't. It'd be nice if we could just use people for everything and then the world would be more inclusive.