Israel

I don't want to see Israeli civilians killed just as much as I don't want to see Palestinians killed.

Israel's problem is that retains no sense of proportionality. Look at operation Cast Lead. Kill to death ratio of 100-1. That's not measured defence and deterrence, that's a massacre. And the issue is that the policies they pursue do not help their security or strategic position. In fact, by continuing as they have over decades, they might seriously undermined their long term ability to even exist. At least not without a lot of bloodshed.

The two state solution is dead. Not that it was a perfect solution but it was probably the best anyone could hope for. Ultimately, it'll be a one state solution. And that, eventually, will come to be dominated by Palestinians. Things will get very tricky for Israelis at that point.

Hamas will continue to bait Israel. Israel are their chief recruiting seargent. Groups like this always operate in this way and states always fall for it.

Biden's relative silence on another massacre is unsurprising. And I was told he was the Lord and the Saviour, carried by hope in his loving, peaceful and compassionate heart.

 

This is not a single issue. It’s no more ‘right’ for Palestinians to kill civilians as it is for the atrocities perpetrated by Israel. It’s about apartheid, ethnic cleansing and the suppression of people by an ultra right wing government. The retaliation by Hamas pales into insignificance compared to the decades of oppression inflicted by Israel. As you seem to have an obsession with child deaths in this conflict the current score over the past week are Israeli children 2, Palestinian children 58.

 

Which came first, the IRA bombing, or the British/Unionist attacks on the Irish? (The PIRA campaign started after the 1969 Belfast riots which was unionist attacks on republican protesters). This led to the introduction of concentration camps in NI in 1971 (Operation Demetrius). It was a complex situation over there - but we were as bad as the IRA (and historical the British are responsible for two genocides in Ireland).

 

Just can't see anything changing mate

 

A good book worth reading for a real autobiographical account of both sides is Son of Hamas written by a Palestinians who saw the worst of both. There's also one called The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine which is obviously very pro-Palestine and basically sums up the history of the conflict and the kinds of tactics the Israelis used to forward the Zionist dream of people like Ben-Gurion.

 

We were as bad as the IRA????? I don’t remember the British Army dropping nail bombs in bins at train stations and pubs with “to whom it may concern” on the address label....... FFS

 

Are we talking historically or more recently? Historically, the English/British committed two acts of Genocide in Ireland - under Cromwell in 1649-52 and the potato famine - and we sent in the Black and Tans during the War of Independence. More recently British soldiers opened fire on several occasions on unarmed groups who were running away or helping the injured (Bloody Sunday being the most famous), protesting against Operations Demetrius (Ballymurphy massacre), and others - while the UVF bombed McGurk's Bar and the RUC tried to officially blame it on the IRA - or the Dublin and Monaghan bombings or "Miami Showband killings" in 1974 where the British army either helped with the bombings or actually carried out the attack.

So yes, the IRA did some absolutely despicable acts during the Troubles *but* so did our soldiers and our government - we had concentration camps from 73-75 in NI where we used interrogation techniques found by the European Commission on Human Rights to be torture - although the ECHR found this wasn't the case after our government had hidden evidence. Both sides committed some seriously bad acts and both sides were as bad as the other - although you could argue that the British state should have set an example and held itself to a higher standard than a bunch of "lawless revolutionaries".

FFS indeed.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54908852

 

Yes FFS

 

The British security forces killed/murdered 186 civilians and loyalist paramilitaries killed 878 = 1064, republicans 721.

As I've said (several times), the IRA were very bad, but they didn't operate in a vacuum and our side were also very bad. Both things can be true at the same time.