Brexit sucess

I'm not sure thats as easy as you suggest. The media is largely controlled by rich powerful offshore billionaires. What the majority see and read is controlled and filtered by them and they've become very adept at eliminating competition, aided by a terrible electoral system that is hard to burst.

We'll soon see boundary reform that favours the tories and the privatisation of channel 4, maybe even further threats to curtail the reach of the BBC.

 

Reight thank you to those who had engaged in polite debate, we'll never agree but it would be boring if everyone shared the same view all the time. Just keep it civil...

So right, off for some snap then off down to the local micropub to watch England take Scotland out of Europe against their own will (quoting Ian Blackford on that one, funniest thing he's ever said).
Anybodys welcome for a pint but we only chat ****, no serious politics until the real ale sets in and nobody listening anyway.

It's coming home!!

 

I didn't mention the Russians i don't think.
I do strongly believe for all the faults of the EU and there are many, the UK was a far stronger and louder voice in the EU than it is now as a country alone. As a country alone we are a member of the G7, NATO the the loose group of the Commonwealth, we have the seat on the Security Council at the UN and an independent nuclear deterrent, BUT we were so much stronger and secure as part of a group of 30 nations based on a common geography.

As part of that large group with targeted investments on environmental issues with UK diplomacy leading we would have set a worldwide example. Now we are a small periphery country i am afraid and no matter what we do will look exactly that. Small

 

I don't see it as 'switching markets' - it's about consuming less. That's why its hard and in a 'democracy' difficult to deal with.

You might not like this Govt (I don't) but that's a separate matter from the EU trust discussion. I'd judge them by their actions and they are about to announce a significant shift in the Farming Subsidy system now they are not bound up in CAP. One that stops paying for produce no one wants and damages the Environment, to one that pays public money for public goodS. I think that's a good thing.

On a separate point I don't buy into the argument that this is the worst Tory Govt in our lifetime either. That can only apply if you're 11 years old. I've been astounded by the huge sums of money passed out to individuals/businesses in the last 15 months with no regard to the long term environmental sustainability/impact of those businesses. I've never seen such Socialist largesse in my lifetime! Bizarre! The rapid abandonment of 'austerity' and 'balancing the books' shows what a cruel political con trick that was.

I think there is a chance post Covid to genuinely build back better but that will mean stopping doing some stuff as well as investing. If you think Johnson/Sunak are dangerous right wingers, you should just at some of the 'traditional' Tories that sit behind them.

 

If you had a government who could be moderately trusted, I may side with you on your initial comment. But we're literally letting criminals and conmen have their way on anything they want with no restraints. I'd disagree re the Eu anyway, but putting this lot in charge of what comes next is truly lunacy.

Its absolutely the worst government in my lifetime. and I'm a bit older than 11. DePfeffel is a shapeshifter, as are so many in his cabinet. I may not agree with most tory ideology, but populism is most dangerous and the far right jingoism that is burgeoning should make everyone who doesn;t succumb to it feel uneasy.

At any point, a country has scope to do better than what it did before. but when you judge this lot on any measure at all, and actually judge them on actions not flimsy rhetoric lacking in thought and plan, no good will come while they cling onto power. The only good they will do is for themselves and their allies, at literally any cost.

 

So on the issues you’re concerned with; you don’t think this government will do better than the EU, and you don’t think a Labour government would do better either!

But you’re still convinced we have a better chance of changing things in this country whilst out of the EU . Can you show your workings please, cos I’m confused.

 

Fair enough. I don’t want to get into defending a Tory Govt but I genuinely don’t think this one can compare with the Thatcher Govt. An Administration that used all the powers of the State (Police, Army, MI5, MI6, GCHQ and the benefits system) to systematically attack Men, Women and Children. Maybe I feel more inclined to hate that Govt because they were my Friends and Family or maybe because younger people tend to ‘care’ a bit more.
Seeing the State operate in that way had an enormous impact on me. And it’s probably one of the reasons that, in so much as I care at all, a Scottish win tonight would not upset me. My Dad (a former Miner who was beaten) is giving me ‘pelters’ as I type!

 

tb f I agree with that. But without talking to the EU first we wouldnt have known what was on the table.

 

Nope, they're constitutionally elected to serve their constituency.

 

True but if something implemented hurts the nation it'll then impact on their constituency eventually. The Norfolk and Suffolk areas are noticing this now. The local shops aren't visited by EU pickers, and they can't get pickers in an industry which props up the local economy.
We all suffer because of food waste or lack of fresh produce on the shelves due to lack of drivers.

Surely these constituency MPs knew this when voting for this? I'm guessing the pickers and drivers are hiding behind the mountain of cash bound for the NHS.

 

It's like what happened to me the other day: I couldn't get through the door at the gym, but noticed some people had access cards that opened it. I asked the guy on reception if I could have one of those cards and he asked if I was a member. Couldn't believe it. I told him there's no way I want to be a member of a gym that only lets members in. Disgusting.

 

Then told what to do and how to vote by the party whips with no consideration of the issues within the MP's constituency
Toe the party line or else!

 

Nope, that's a common misconception but not how it works, they are the representative of their constituents but not the delegate:

"The first duty of a member of Parliament is to do what they think in their faithful and disinterested judgement is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain. The second duty is to their constituents, of whom they are the representative but not the delegate. Burke's famous declaration on this subject is well known. It is only in the third place that their duty to party organisation or programme takes rank. All these three loyalties should be observed, but there is no doubt of the order in which they stand under any healthy manifestation of democracy."

 

He was sat behind us in the Showroom Cinema last satdi.
Well it was either Stewart Lee, or Ratko Mladic has really let himself go.