20 years, for what?

You could have said exactly the same about western Europe until 1945 (and I believe a fair few American writers did at the turn of the 20th century) - the relative lack of wars here since then is completely unprecedented. It's not an issue confined to one corner of the world.

 

I think the UK and NATO will have to intervene yet again, but probably not on the ground, or that you would know it. My opinion, and it is only that, is that Afghanistan will become a breeding ground for terrorism against the West. Sadly the ideals of the Taliban are so far in the past that the majority of Afghanis will be persecuted, the women and young girls will be demeaned and denied an education. I can only see Afghanistan going back hundreds of years under the Taliban, which is a travesty as many of the Afghanis are peaceful and really friendly people. The country and people deserve better but corruption, a weak army and interference from Pakistan in the support of the Taliban do nothing to make the country safe.

 

Apparently Ben Wallace wanted to keep the small UK military presence out there in the form of Op Toral. As soon as America pulled the plug however that was that.

 

3000 Americans and 600 British in the way back out apparently.

 

sorry I messed this up

 

Why do you think everything is made from mud? Practically zero paved roads because it’s so expensive to bring building materials in - everything has to be airlifted or brought through 3rd countries as it’s landlocked.

 

My PhD thesis, in part, looks at the US' war in Afghanistan. One thing that's clear to me is that us and the Americans had to be pretty stupid to go in there in the first place. The objectives evolved but, if anything, they only got more ridiculous.

It's sad to see what's happening now but I hope Biden sticks with the withdrawal. For a start, western presence in the Middle East does not make us or locals any safer. I wouldn't be surprised to see a limited force going back but there are just too many reasons why its impossible for the West to make Afghanistan a 'success'.

 

To be fair, you can replace Afghanistan with any other Middle Eastern country or African Country we’ve invaded over the years.

Libya, Iraq, Syria have all been made immeasurably worse by our desire to push democracy on countries or more importantly pinch their oil.

All that area is now on a knife edge.

Russian mercenaries are now in Libya killing at will and nobody will do anything about it.

The west have absolutely destroyed any chance of peace for the next 20 generations, yet we think we’re the good guys.

 

Tbh I can see both sides of the argument, the West went in with the best of intentions, OK it didn't work.
But lets not pretend the people of Afghanistan will be safer or happy under the Taliban ( especially the women!) people will be forced into ridiculously outdated ways of life, the Taliban are religious fanatics to start with and its very easy to see the extremists amongst the extremists feeding terror groups both with weapons and personnel.
Funnily enough when you talk to people who were out there and see documentaries and stuff they are often the ones who think its been a worthwhile effort and a mistake to leave.
No idea what the answer is but leaving the ordinary people to this horrible life seems harsh!

 

Absolutely, I agree. I think the 'it's all about oil' argument is overstated by some though. There's hardly any evidence that the oil lobby pushed the Iraq war, in fact what the oil companies wanted to do was jump into bed with Saddam and make money. Likewise, the U.S. wouldn't be pushing sanctions on countries such as Iran, that prohibits U.S. oil companies from dealing with the Iranians. There's also no indication that access to oil from the Middle East was under threat around the time of the Iraq war etc. Britain and the U.S. should absolutely put contingency measures in place to ensure that we can maintain access to oil from that region, but this can be done off shore.

We, and the Americans especially, believe in our own exceptionalism. Madeleine Albright's 'indispensable nation' quote is a perfect case in point. But it's not that clear cut and I'm afraid Britain and America's actions over the last 20 years or so have helped nobody (you could go back much, much further than this to find the roots of it all). They've only made us and the people in those countries we get involved in much less safe.

I don't think anyone is saying that the majority of Afghans will be happier under the Taliban. But Afghanistan is a very complex country and we can't look at it as a typical nation state like we find in the West. It's a deeply fragmented country that will never be united by an outside force.

 

Its not helped by the level of corruption on all sides out there,

 

My comment was more a reflection of the cost of this futile mission. How many bags of cement were used to build the airstrip etc. Let alone munitian costs etc. Still, the brown man had to have his ar5e kicked whatever the cost.

 

Quite. Another reason why no sustainable progress was made in Afghanistan. Afghan government and local leaders/authorities never wanted the U.S money to go away. Turmoil became profitable.

 

I don't think it was just about Oil in Iraq, Bush wanted to get rid of Saddam after his Dads failure years previously, but theres no doubt that the Oil companies who were unable to get at the oil fields was also a consideration.

The invasion was an opportunity on the back of Saddams posturing to Kuwait.

https://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/19/opinion/iraq-war-oil-juhasz/index.html

 

I find it incredible that the US and the UK on its coat tails have the audacity to propose themselves as fighting for freedom, truth and democracy the world over, given what goes off in our own countries, and what we've inflicted upon other nations for so many decades.

We're war mongers, and it's really about time we got over ourselves.

If it were truly a case of doing whats right and freeing people from oppression... why has Africa been left to its own devices? Or Myanmar. Or Venezuela and Colombia? China and Russia seem to be allowed to do whatever they like too. We only get involved when the US is involved and its a country/leader we feel we can bully.

 

Or where theres something to take afterwards.

 

Those regions are largely left alone as the U.S. has no vital strategic interest there. Much like Afghanistan, too. The idea that Afghanistan is a safe haven for terrorists and a launchpad for terrorism in the West is a myth. That is something I've spent plenty of time researching and writing about. I actually make the case that if you had to place terror cells anywhere in the world, Afghanistan would be an ideal place. Which is why U.S. intervention there made even less sense.

The thing about China and Russia is that they're only behaving like how all great powers do. They follow and preserve their interests, much like the U.S. (Britain can't be considered a great power rather we're a part of the United States' foreign policy apparatus.. but also we're not Belgium with nukes).

The United States has pursued a policy of liberal hegemony since the end of the Cold War. At the centre of this is the idea that remaking the world in your own image will lead to peace and prosperity. I'd argue this idea of remaking the world in your own image is actually illiberal. But the underpinning theory doesn't hold up, either (democratic peace theory, economic interdependence theory and liberal institutionalism). It just undermines the United States and Britain when we preach liberalism but can't respect or tolerate how other nations operate, too. Not that I think we shouldn't pursue our interests to remain as secure as we can, just don't expect the rest of the world to readily submit to your ideals. And my main issue is the fact that in pursuing this agenda, we only make ourselves less secure.

 

The USA holds itself up as a beacon of light and democracy - that came very close to having a coup at the start of the year and has issues of its own with domestic terrorism.

 

Just to get our nationals out and Afghans that aided us as translators.