Surprised we havent had Brexiters gloating about the Benefits

If anyone is confused about Imperial measures... this should help explain it all!

 

Gove should be OK in charge of housing as he allegedly loves swinger parties.......

https://popbitch.com/2019/01/swing-vote/

 

Well. You are right to a point. What also happens is price rises and inflation. So if you get your 3% or 4% pay rise it’s wiped out by inflation.

What will actually happen in the medium term is that all employment rights will be lost. We will move to the Kingston Upon Singapore model and it will be an absolute disaster for working class people who have seen food and energy increases push them closer to the edge.

 

Who regards themselves as 'working class' these days? And how many would prefer to think of themselves as 'aspirational'? Not a wind-up, JV. Genuine point of debate, because that may set the parameters of Labour's support going forward. Can they appeal to voters who want to be aspirational?

 

In my opinion, only mine mind, I reckon every single political party lies their ******** off to get in!! Just my take/experience

 

most aspiration working class people are city based doing jobs that wouldn’t traditionally be called working class but definitely are. Most of the ‘traditional’ working class don’t actually work at all anymore.

you have 2 competing strands and urban outgoing pro immigration, socially left as well as economically working class. You then have the non working class in the old Labour heartlands. Insular regressive often xenophobic much more cash wealthy (in some case) than the urban working class. The young working class here are also ignored as again their needs are seen as less relevant than the boomers

2 completely different working class voter bases with different ideas and political needs. One overwhelmingly socialist and left. One reactionary socially conservative and right though often traditionally Labour voters.

Corbyn did a great job of shoring up working class votes particularly in London and the affluent south but lost a lot of the socially conservative retired. Working class. Starmer has made the miscalculation that the young have nowhere to go so ignores them and goes chasing the more reactionary right wing votes of the heartland voters. This has led to a massive drop in support of the aspirational working class now going Green and a veey small uptick in the traditional vote.

Labour have a very difficult balancing act to do. Corbyn failed to unite po freedom of movement pro immigration with anti FOM anti immigration strands. Starmer looks to be doing even worse and is offering pretty much nothing to working class people while not really attracting the more traditional xenophobic elderly boomers.

 

Great answer. But under either leader they're dead?

 

The version of Starmer that campaigned could have United the strands but chose not to do so by abanding what he campaigned on. I’ve no idea why he did that because he was in the right track. Now he can’t answer a simple question on wealth tax when asked 6 times. even when the answer is obvious



I think unless Labour embrace someone soft left.but also with appeal to the traditional base. Someone like Clive Lewis a former soldier but with progressive ideas around working with other parties and changing the electoral system then yes they are dead.

 

What’s happened (more so in the last perhaps 20 years or so) and continues to happen is that the common conception ( or misconception) of the straightforward 3 class system ( working/ lower, Middle and upper) has seen the rise in subdivisions of the classes. This is apparent between the working classes and lower classes. Then their is the ones between working classes and middle classes. If my memory serves me right I think it was Seebohm Rowntree in his study of York in the late 19th century that highlighted these. He noted the differences of standard of living between the Artisans (skilled Labour) and the ‘manual’ workers. I find it so hypocritical that the Tory’s who profess to be a progressive party like nothing better than to introduce policies and laws that takes the lot of the ‘Ordinary person’ backwards and look back to the halcyon days of the Victorian era. The biggest disappointment of course is the ordinary folk behaving like turkeys voting for Christmas.

 

Latest social class divisions have 7

Huge survey reveals seven social classes in UK http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22007058

But people seem welded to the Heath Jowell and Curtice model.

 

I'm working class and both sides of my family were working class, I have got a bob or two now after selling up and that does not make one eye oter of a difference, I always tell my children and grandchildren to remember where they come from and to be proud of it.

 

This is an argument that will run and run. Nobody wants to admit that they were wrong no matter how you voted. I was and continue to be a convinced remainer although I accept that the EU is over priced and bureaucratic and in need of reform. I think that the UK leaving didn't help us, or them and made it OK for nationalists to be comfortable with their chauvinistic views. A single market should be achievable without federalism.
My main fear now is that being outside of that market and with the self imposed sanctions that comes with it will lead to inflation which we are already beginning to see. Inflation, once it begins, has a tendency to run riot as it becomes an excuse for profiteering. I remember inflation rates of 25% in the 80s and the banks response of raising interest rates.
Many people nowadays have mortgages that would have terrified me in the eighties and if they are faced with the interest rates I had to pay they will be massively overstretched. With the privatisation of the rental market nobody will be unaffected.
At this point Brexit becomes about more than getting rid of Polish and Lithuanian neighbours it becomes a question of survival.

 

Why will the EU collapse? I've seen this predicted for donkeys years by the rabid press and oddly the EU just seems to get bigger and stronger. Give me a convincing argument...

 

Exactly, anything that goes wrong is because of brexit. Anything that goes right is because of brexit. Depending on which side you are… often things that are world wide.

 

This and e-red's comments are very sensible.
Take for example the submarine deal. This will create supply chain jobs in south yorkshire (eg forgemasters make the propellers etc) Ostensibly this happened because Australia decided to beef up its military in the face of a perception China has expansionist aims in the Pacific. We have been involved in gazumping the French. There is a view that the pact/deal wouldn't have happened had we still been in the EU. The truth is we will probably never know but it will be kicked about like a political football. Austiniho is right that far too often events have been judged in this binary options way. The World today isn't really that simple and covid poured petrol on the fire

 

its a little bit ironic that you say this now when most who sided remain, especially on here could see the nuances and were able to express them before the vote. Those that chose to leave were very binary and still to this day I feel genuinely are incapable of proving the benefits. Out means out… whatever that actually means.