There are times I really like our Jury system

Jury nullification such as this is going to become increasingly important and relevant given the Tories' creeping war against freedom, compassion and the rule of law (e.g. the criminalisation of protest and helping migrants)

 

Not biting mate,must try harder

 

It was erected in spite of the fact he was a slave trader by people who were happy to accept that although he was responsible for thousands of dead black people and the misery and suffering of hundreds of thousands of other black people, he wasn’t such a bad bloke because he gave some money to local charities.

it was pulled down by a group of people who decided that the good work he’d done didn’t outweigh the murder and misery.

Now; you have to ask yourself what makes you see that first group of people in a better light than the second.

Because my moral compass comes to the opposite conclusion.

 

bravo.

 

As someone who used to walk past this statue every day on my way to work, I understand the depth of feeling that led to it coming down. It was an imposing statue, it looked down literally on the people passing by. I didn't like walking past it as a white male, and I can only imagine the depth of feeling for non-white people in the city, of which there are a substantial number, and of which my partner is one. This feeling was exacerbated in the wake of the murder of George Floyd, and, as others have said, after all avenues to remove the statue had been exhausted. When I asked my mum at the time if she had heard about the statue coming down in the city, her first response was that she hadn't but 'that sounds awful'. I explained the context around it and that people had simply had enough and didn't want to look at it any more. Funnily enough, I have often thought about what an equivalent scenario would be in Barnsley, and I have always thought of what @Brush mentioned earlier: it is akin to a statue of Thatcher in Barnsley town centre, and asking the people of Barnsley to respect history and keep the statue where it is, despite the damage done to the people of the town. The anger became so severe regarding the Colston statue, particularly, as I mentioned, following the George Floyd tragedy, that people took matters into their own hands. I don't think we should resort to pulling down statues, but I understand the sentiment.

Looking back, and as an aside, I would question the police approach to this protest compared with other protests. The BLM protest was allowed to go ahead during lockdown with no police intervention or fines being handed out; vandalism took place, and the harbour and walkways were damaged. Other protests - Kill the Bill, Anti-lockdown etc were met very differently, and it seems that the police have adopted a pick and choose approach to how they deal with protests, and that politics influences this. They have previously arrested a single person at speaker's corner exercising his right to speak for breaking lockdown rules, but the BLM protest went ahead with no police intervention. Such differing approaches to protests by the police will only create more division and arguments based on who is right/wrong in the context of what the protest is for.

 

I have made no comment on the statue , its history or anything, I never post anything remotely political or what ever it is, I have no opinion on the rights or wrongs of the statue & have said that, my comments are that I do not think that anyone should damage public property & that is it, & now I have been accused of being a Racist, I am seething , that accusation is bang out of order & has no substance & if anyone knew me they would know that such an accusation could not be further from the truth , I repeat again , I have made no comments about the statue or the history that goes with it, I am not interested , what I am interested in is damage to public property & thats why I passed a comment

 

Can you explain how this looks in your head, because you say…
‘I have no opinion on the rights or wrongs of the statue’.

Now this is a statue celebrating the achievements of someone responsible for the deaths of thousands of black people; but you have no opinion on that? You’re not bothered by it at all, they’re your words.

But you are bothered by an act of vandalism (so am I btw)

So; how do you justify that to yourself? How are you not bothered about thousands of black people killed, but you’re clearly very angry about the vandalising of a statue?

I’m asking in the hope it’ll make you reassess what your actual thoughts are, rather than just thoughtlessly reacting to the vandalism.

 

I’m not accusing you of being racist, but in your post you say you have been accused of being racist and that nothing could be further from the truth. Then you say you are not interested in the history the statue? I would say to you if nothing get could be further from the truth than this ‘accusation ‘ then can you not see the conflict of your comments?

 

Amusing news this, enjoyed reading the usual suspects smashing their keyboards to pieces in discust on twitter all day.

I didn't realise so many people cared so much about pieces of bronze.

 

And seemingly so little about dead black people? Though obviously that doesn’t make them racist, it was a long time ago and slavery was legal, so it’s unimportant that lives were lost or ruined.

 

It would be interesting to hear the views of those that disagree with verdict / toppling of the statue, on the toppling of Saddam Hussein's statue in 2003.

 

But they want to learn about history?!

Even though there are things called books and the internet that documents said history in incredible detail - it's important to have a statue so it's not erased. Because removal of a statue wipes history completely obviously.

 

Not to mention the hundreds of Nazi and Soviet era statues that have been destroyed in the last 70 years.

 

Not a bad idea.

 

I’ll answer your question with a question:
Where have I ever said the first people are or were better?

I’ll answer that question for you I haven’t, ever.
All I’ve said is the statue was put up in recognition for his Philanthropy work.

 

I think you mean, contributing towards bettering white people's lives. He clearly didn't give a toss for people with coloured skin.

 

I can’t argue with that

 

I must have missed it but what was story of the anti vaxxer arrested at speakers corner @Redarmy87 ?

 

I can see two sides of the argument about the action. Was it criminal damage? IMO Yes.
Did the ends justify the means and would fines and custodial sentences have been justified anyway given the background to the targeted object and there were no injuries? IMO No!

IMO Somehow they should have been found guilty of the actual criminal damage but no fines or prison sentences - actual or suspended should have been imposed. Unfortunately the jury have no control of sentencing and I wonder if they had they would have made a different decision.

We have entered the World of 'Trial by public opinion' here overriding the actual written law. BUT......

My concern is, that it must be made clear to a certain people (on both sides of the political or social divide) who arrive en-masse at peaceful rallies and protests hell bent on agitating and who start riots, cause criminal damage and in extreme cases arson, looting and injuries to innocents that this verdict does not set a precedent . It is NOT a green light to go out, commit vandalism, and use the fact they believe public opinion is on their side. I think the vast majority of people (including myself) agree that in this particular situation those involved should be absolved of the crime (which it was) due to the particular set of circumstances

HOWEVER.... On the verdict itself the defence' following statement says all that needs saying really.


"In this case, they determined that a conviction for the removal of this statue - that glorified a slave trader involved in the enslavement of over 84,000 black men, women and children as a 'most virtuous and wise' man - would not be proportionate."

 

How do you mean I “broke your quote”? My response has disappeared but none of us are defending slavery so I’m not saying that any number of deaths is acceptable but you can’t just blame Coulston. That is a facile argument. I don’t agree with this view that the opinions of some people are seemingly beyond reproach and allow them to commit acts which some of us would consider to be criminal. By seeking to destroy the statue rather than putting it in context you are weighing one aspect of his life without any appreciation of the times he lived in or what other things he did.
As I said before, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. And while I’m quoting, judge ye not lest ye be judged. I assume you are typing your responses on an electronic device which contains metals obtained by slave labour in the 21st century. So why are you condoning slavery now, by buying goods from people who use slaves, while criticising someone who made money from slavery in 1692?