OT Err....so how will this work then?...

On the front page of the Telegraph ( FYI viewed on the BBC website newspapers papers 'roundup' as I am not a Torygraph reader) has a small article that states a 'new system' will allow the national grid to 'balance the system' at times of high consumption by drawing power from parked EVs plugged into the grid, especially, for example when there is little wind.

So,....... hypothetically, you could arrive at your workplace with a low battery, plug it in, assuming at ' home time' you will have a decent charge in your vehicle to find it has not only not charged ,but available power has actually reduced!!

I suppose it is unlikely that overnight home charging would rarely be impacted as high demand at those times is unusual although when everyone goes electric and charges overnight it may be that high demand does occur at those times especially if obviously solar power is not available and there is no wind.

I can't see how any system can be setup that is so sophisticated that it can measure the available battery level of each individual EV plugged into the system and only draw power from those with full or near full charge. If a car has a very low battery and someone is attempting a short charge at a time of high demand could it mean that the car does not actually charge at all.

I just don't get it!! DO they really think thing through in the headlong rush towards electrification. (A bit like the lame idea to charge cars on the road via induction cables under the parking spots on roads in some urban areas idea!) Any one with any clue about electrical science will tell you how 'lossy' that method of delivering power is based on all the current (pun intended) research.

 

I would think that the charging circuitry for the car would have the ability to judge the state of the battery and thus would refuse to supply power to the grid if the battery was low. Hence the central system wouldn't need to "know" about each individual vehicle battery. I can see your point about drawing power from vehicles at times of high demand, it's quite hard to feed power into the grid when you're tazzing down the M1.....

 

Sounds a bit odd. The only reason for leaving your car connected up overnight is to charge it. I doubt anyone with a fully charged battery will go to the trouble of connecting up.

 

Especially after ya charge it fully at a cost for it then to be drained ....it'll be like us paying them to charge the grid

 

In the next few months/years I think we’ll be seeing a lot of variable cost tariffs where it’s cheaper to buy electric at off peak times.
The idea will be that you get home from work at 5 and plug your car in to charge. Between 5 and 7 are peak electric usage times so the grid may borrow the remaining charge from your battery to support the grid and then at 9pm the battery will charge up at a cheaper tariff.
I’m not sure how the logistics of remuneration for your electric will be carried out, but it will also encourage people to set their cars to charge at night the flatten the demand on the distribution network.

 

You arrive home at 4 and put your car on charge, knowing that you're going out again at 6 to drive to Oakwell. You come out to find your car has no charge left and you can't get to the match.

That might be a blessing this season, but in normal circumstances...?

 

Also, as I'm a bit dim where EVs are concerned, would your battery life be affected by additional strain of constant draining/recharging?

 

I can see the rationale but agree that there are a number of stumbling blocks in relation to the practicalities. But I am confident that there will be controls built in to give you some level of control. You will be able to set a minimum charge level that you need at all times for example, and the car will refuse to allow further draw down beyond that. You will also get paid more for it than the cost of re charging overnight, so you make money from it, otherwise why would anyone bother.

Personally though, I reckon a much more viable approach is the concept of vehicle to home rather than vehicle to grid to reduce peak time burden on the grid.

Reasons for this, well

a. Most people are home at the peak times for electricity use, such as 5-8pm. Clearly, otherwise they wouldn't be peak times for use.

b. Many people, myself included, will increasingly be interested in the concept of battery storage for home use, so they can charge up at cheap rates and then use it at peak times instead of using the grid when it's more expensive.

c. The average home only uses around 15kwh of power a day. Peak times use would therefore be 8-10kwh

So if people are home with a huge battery sat on the drive capable of back feeding into the house, it makes sense to use a small portion of it to power the house at peak times, if you know you dont need to go anywhere, and then put it back overnight at cheap rates plus what you need for the next day. That kind of usage for just your own home is chicken feed to a large EV battery. And you stay in control. If you might need what's in the battery, simple - dont plug in and use it for the house. Brings your home electric bill down, without the need to buy a separate overpriced home battery, and without the unknowns of whether the grid will draw the lot out when you might need it.

I think the CCS protocol is soon to be capable of bi directional charge / discharge - at present it is only available on the Chademo protocol but that is dying out in Europe. As soon as a CCS car becomes capable of bi directional, V2H, I will be very interested.

Makes me smile when I read comments on EV articles online from sceptics who suggest that EV drivers will be knackered in a queue on the motorway in winter. My EV battery would power my house for 5 days. It would be awesome to be able to use it to actually power my house when I am home.

 

I think you are being highly over?? optimistic. Take a scenario (actually experienced it. On late evening stuck on M62 Westbound (before the descent into Manchester) 4 hours!! having already ravelled some distance, snowing quite heavily -4C . Given Batteries already have reduced capacity (and therefore maximum published range)when temperatures are sub zero and you are unlikely to have anywhere near 100% capacity. an additional 1-2 Kw usage used by the heater is definitely cause for concern. Admittedly, the heater consumption will not be at maximum 100% of the time.
Nevertheless even if you still have some juice left after you get moving again, any calculations you made regarding range to get home may well be totally scuppered (like many others and your first chance to recharge may well be services where many other drivers are in the same situation) This means you may have a considerable wait before being able to plug in and charge.

I too smile when I see avid EV advocates stating they 'never have any trouble accessing chargers'. Of course they don't since, in spite of headlines like "EV sales soaring" they refer to sales and new vehicle registration. Of all the vehicles in circulation EVs in the UK only account for about 1% . Wait until they get to around 40-50%. Even if EVs become the majority, the infrastructure is unlikely to keep pace especially with dead end solutions like induction charging being proposed. Until battery technology improves it will only be suitable for people in urban areas with easy access to chargers at home or very nearby. Heavy farm machinery (Combine Harvesters)are not going to be EVs in the forseeable future due to working practices which are not possible to change. Nature determines when the crops need harvesting and Combines operate 24/7 with little or no stoppages and having to change batteries or charge in the middle of the countryside is totally unviable! The tractors and HGVs possibly ma go EV sooner but they too run flat out collecting and transporting the grain (often alongside the combine or at least when it needs emptying and offloading and returning for the next batch.

 

A modern EV has a battery of at least 50kwh. Many are 70kwh or more. Mine is 64kwh.

Even if I hit the back of that 4 hour queue with half a battery, that is 32kwh, capable of travelling another 120 miles.

By the time I am on the motorway the cabin has long since got up to the required temp and the heater is using barely 600w to keep it there. Even more efficient if the car has a heat pump.

The car will be using power for virtually nothing else. Unlike an ICE car, when it not moving it is using no energy for the motor. You could turn off your ICE car to save fuel but then your heating goes. Not a problem in the EV.

So your 4 hour queue is likely to cost around 2 or 3 kWh max, out of the 30 odd you have with half a battery left. You dont need to all queue up at the next services as you suggested. You could find one anywhere in the next 50 or 60 miles.

I know you are an EV sceptic but if you are going to suggest that EVs will be knackered after getting stuck in a winter queue, then trust me, you're wrong.

 

F air enough but you have to factor in 10% at least less battery efficiency in minus temperatures (albeit that is far better than the 50% or so loss in lead acid) but you also assumed you joined the queue with 50%. Supposing you had just travelled from Scotland M74 M6 with a car full and hit a major jam with only . I am not saying you would be stranded , but sub zero, high load, 15% or less in reserve (7 kW could lead to squeaky bum time especially as possible further delays occur clearing the backlog with start stop traffic for miles which could mean overall a delay of several hours before finding an available unoccupied charge point. No different from hitting similar problems with low fuel in an ICE but refilling takes only a couple of minutes whilst a number of EV cars needing a 'top up' charge could be an issue.

... I stress probably currently no problem but in a few years when there are mainly EVs and some older models 8-10 years are starting to see deteriorating range then that could be difficult for people who cannot, like you, afford new vehicles.
I have no issue with plugin hybrids which are eminently sensible give current battery and technology and infrastructure but EV only vehicles in the current timeframe IMHO is unrealistic. Given all the issues coming to light re dismantling old batteries and how little is actually recyclable I think they are not even close to being as 'green' as claimed. If as much was spent on research/developing hydrogens cell tech as has been spent on EVs we would be far closer to solving the obstacles currently blocking the way of that particular technology. I take it you live in an urban environment. Tell me how someone living in a rural area like we do where many properties only have 3kW standard supply (We have 6Kw) . Just to put a 60% charge into a 64KW Kia Soul via a 10A plug needs around 18.5 hours !!!! Obviously even 7Kw chargers are not possible when you are running fridges freezers, central heating pumps etc.

 

Most people live in an urban or semi-urban environment, 90% of car journeys are less than 10 miles.

Combine harvesters and tractors account for less than 1% of of vehicles.

The future is electric and (having just started using an EV) the future is quiet, clean, cheap and very very fun.

 

But where will they get their diesel (assuming they are exempt from the ICE ban) since the BBC (that reliable source of information) tell us that 'Petrol stations will close sooner than we think"

 

When the subject of EVs comes up, why do you always turn the conversation to the impracticality of electrified farming vehicles. It's a bit niche.

Don't farmers use red diesel anyway for fuelling farm vehicles. I am sure that would continue as a specialist supply because I am pretty sure you can't just buy it from the average local garage, even while they do still exist.

If rural Italty has an electrical supply system that is not conducive to the wide scale take up of EVs that is Italy's problem to solve. In the UK, the domestic supply system and the public infrastructure will flex and cope fine over the coming years to meet demand. It's a matter of supply and demand, that's how economies work. When the demand is there, there is money to be made and so the supply will come. Take a look on ZapMap - they are being installed on a daily basis.

The biggest issue right now, now that we are at the start of the big up curve with EVs to take them from niche into becoming normal, is not necessarily the availability of chargers, it's the inconsiderate use of them. When EVs were more niche, the small number of users were enthusiasts. They researched them, they understood the unwritten etiquette of using chargers with consideration for others etc. Now that they are more normal, regular people are buying them who really have no interest, or are even having one foisted on them as a company car. They don't research their use. They show the same selfishness and lack of consideration that we moan about on here as being prevalent in society and therefore they see nothing wrong in sitting on a rapid charger for hours, blocking its use for everyone else while they bugger off for hours.

 

In fairness I did not ask you to t address my comments on Hybrids and the problems with recycling expended EV batteries but we have even mentioned the depletion and problems of mining with the precious metals required .
I get that you are a convert but I remain highly sceptical that EVs are a long term solution, even in a small part, to climate change. I strongly believe we are going down a blind alley. Ultimately it will be, IMO anyway, the lack of infrastructure that will be the downfall of these grandiose plans as it will require a gargantuan effort to keep pace with the demand and projects and financing on a scale not seen since the Victorians built the railways.

 

Everything is a blind alley.

The internal combustion engine was a blind alley, along one, but one that caused so many problems.

The EV will have it's day and then be replaced by something else.

Stop being Sally Stuck-in-the-mud and get on board, it's bloody great fun.