Russia invades Ukraine

Good point Mr Dawson. What you say might sound selfish, but I look at it another way. I’ve been lucky enough to travel a lot on business. Part of that involved meeting ordinary folk all over the world. America, Pakistan, Japan, most European countries. They invited me into their homes, had a meal, talked about families, played with the kids. Whatever race or religion it was always the same. If you put all those families in one room (even if they couldn’t speak the same language) they would get on and have a great time. People the world over are pretty much the same - they just want to care for their families. It’s only their leaders, their greed and lust for power that turns people against each other.

 

If you're telling me that whenever Trump is mentioned you don't "try to add balance" then what's the point? You've tried to paint him in a positive light on this thread. You're not ridiculous, but the continued love-in for him is.

As for covert threat? Give over. Just pointing out that it is obvious what you think of him but won't nail your colours to the mast for whatever reason.

 

With all this trumping I hope nobody follows through.

 

I don't need to search posts and I believe you, but my point still stands. All I'll say is just be honest about it, rather than trying to say you're just adding balance etc etc. I'd respect it a lot more.

As for the world leaders, I guess it is a very delicate tightrope to tread. It doesn't take much to antagonise Putin so perhaps allowing him to flex his muscles every so often was seen as the lesser of two evils and preventing the situation we are in now? I have no idea and other than hitting them hard with sanctions such as SWIFT I am not sure how we are going to sort this.

 

just thinking. I know soldiers are trained to obey orders unquestioningly down the chain of command , but if someone was ordered to fire off a nuke (first strike rather than retaliatory) knowing that it would mean the end of everything and everyone he knew and also people at the top of the hierarchy like Putin and the senior Govt men and military would be hunkered down somewhere safe, would they really press the button? Although the answer is probably yes... what goes through the minds of people facing that situation. Why would anyone be so conditioned that they would not refuse?

It is different from the fanatical SS in WW2 who carried out atrocities as there was no doubt in their minds that there would be few if any repercussions affecting them or their families. This is totally different from knowing 100% that by launching a nuke against an enemy also armed with nukes it is the end of everything. I can't get my head round it. I know I couldn't even if it meant getting shot.

 

FFS a but Corbyn thread’ No-one has arse-licked the Russian regime more than the Tories. Have you got contempt for the Tory’s who have been encouraging the Russians by taking their money into their coffers?

 

I'm with you. I don't know how they're going to fix this other than hoping Russia don't fancy taking any more territory after the Ukraine.

 

I've got my point across and said how I feel about it, i wont bring it up again.

 

Fighting rages near Chenobyl nuclear plant.

 

Last thing we need.

 

In Europe and America there's a growing feeling of hysteria
Conditioned to respond to all the threats
In the rhetorical speeches of the Soviets
Mister Krushchev said, "We will bury you"
I don't subscribe to this point of view
It'd be such an ignorant thing to do
If the Russians love their children too
How can I save my little boy from Oppenheimer's deadly toy?
There is no monopoly on common sense
On either side of the political fence
We share the same biology, regardless of ideology
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the Russians love their children too
There is no historical precedent
To put the words in the mouth of the president?
There's no such thing as a winnable war
It's a lie we don't believe anymore
Mister Reagan says, "We will protect you"
I don't subscribe to this point of view
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the Russians love their children too
We share the same biology, regardless of ideology
But what might save us, me and you
Is if the Russians love their children too

 

It's not quite the same as disobeying a direct order, but I think the story of Vasily Arkhipov is instructive here. The submarine he was on lost contact with the Soviet Union during the Cuban missile crisis. The captain and political officer thought that a war might have started and voted to launch a nuclear missile, but his was the third vote needed and he eventually convinced the captain to resurface and check. It's interesting in the context of your question not so much because Arkhipov went against the captain, but also because the other two were up for it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Arkhipov

 

Yep, kicking off big style round there.

How can they be fighting in an area that is supposed to be uninhabitable?

 

I suspect that NATO and the west will not do anything at all of any substance inside Ukraine because of potential escalation problems. However, humanitarian aid could be provided and military intelligence could be shared I would think.
As far as the Ukraine military is concerned, although I know absolutely nothing of the tactical situation I wonder if they would have the balls to contemplate a counter-attack and an incursion into Russian territory. Sounds implausible I know but I wonder if its been discussed by the Ukrainian military.

 

I expect that "uninhabitable" in this context means that staying in the area long term will lead to dangerous radiation exposure, but short term is fine.

 

There’s definitely no issues in and around Chernobyl says Russian soldier Vlad Zelensky