DON'T BUY ANYTHING RUSSIAN

Did you see what happened to the thousands of protesters that took to the streets of Russia to protest against the war? I don't think they have been blindsided or fooled by Putin, it's more the case that they are limited in what they can do against a regime of oppression.

Really, people who support the title of this thread are advocating for a world in which the ordinary people of Russia lose on all fronts. They lose their loved ones in the theatre of a war that they don't want, they lose more of their rights (including the right to protest), and by championing the naive and childish sentiment 'DON'T BUY ANYTHING RUSSIAN', they lose their livelihoods.

Can people not see the dangers and injustice of castigating a whole people who have no legitimate say in who their leader is or what actions he takes? It's not just a question of goodies and badies any more, there are losers on all fronts, we shouldn't be making it worse.

 

The problem is that I suspect much of what we buy from Russia isn't from small independents, and if big companies are funded, you're potentially supporting the regime and its acquisition of wealth. So I understand the notion of cutting off economic support, but I can see your point too.

This is war.

Whether we stand still or whether we do something, peoples lives are being changed whether we like it or not. If we do nothing, bombs will keep falling on Kyiv.

I saw a quote earlier today from Putin that dated to 2018. The gist of it was that if there was no Russia, then why should there be anywhere else.

 

It's perpetuating the myth that all Russians are at fault, either directly or indirectly, and should be punished as a result. It's stoking the East vs West fire. It's meeting propaganda with more propaganda. And it's wrong. It's no different to the alienation and mistrust of brown people when 'we' went to war in Iraq, despite a million marching against it. I'm afraid we are pretty powerless when it comes to what our governments do, and we shouldn't turn on our fellow common people. And don't forget, our government can hardly be trusted in all of this, nor could it in any war in recent history.

As for Putin's claim, that's not the same as saying the whole world should be Russian is it? It's more of a defensive claim that there should always be a Russia. He's not, despite what the media would like us to believe, akin to Hitler.

 

Putins words were to say if Russia doesn't exist, then nowhere else should. That's certainly not a defensive claim at all.

I think you've taken some massive leaps there, and they certainly don't represent my views.

 

I'm not going to argue on this as I said earlier; none of us has a definitive answer. My view remains though that you seem to be asking that Ukrainians take the full brunt and that we do nothing that might actually force Putin to back down. There's no way to end this without breaking a few eggs.

 

It is defensive because it's defending the existence of Russia.

And they aren't leaps, they are facts. And just to add, I'm glad they don't represent your views, but those who sign up to this sentiment are advocating for that hate towards our fellow human beings I'm afraid, human beings who have a right to still be treated as such despite where they were born and which 'leader' currently oversees them.

 

I'm not angling for an argument. And my view certainly isn't that Ukrainians take the full brunt and 'we do nothing.' I think what Putin is doing is wrong. I'm saying that pigeonholing the whole of Russia into an image of hate towards everyone else, and signing up to the notion that crushing the ordinary working people of that country because of what their leaders do, isn't going to help Ukraine either, it will just lead to more polarization in an already divided world, and ultimately more suffering. Putin and his henchmen will do whatever Putin wants to do regardless.

 

Putin has seldom been in a defensive mode, if at all. Neither was it defensive to threaten Finland and Sweden with zero justification. Nor was it defensive to escalate their nuclear weapon status. Nor is it defensive that his armed forces seem to be using illegal cluster bombs in civilian areas of Kharkiv.

If you don't advocate sanctions to try and limit Putins ambitions, the opposite side of the coin is to allow him to invade Ukraine unencumbered.

His regime has seen opponents ruthlessly murdered and tortured or imprisoned under bogus charges. His people have been teargassed and beaten and arrested for the simple right of protest.

If he were invading the UK, and say the UK wasn't in NATO, what would you expect of the international community?

 

I was referring solely to your comment 'Putins words were to say if Russia doesn't exist, then nowhere else should'. You don't need to compile a long list of ways in which he hasn't been defensive, we'd be here all night!

You are right in that his own people have been teargassed and beaten and arrested for speaking out, which is partly my point - why are we trying to make things harder for them?

And on your last point, I don't know what I'd expect? It's a very confusing and corrupt world. And to flip that on his head for a moment, when we illegally invaded Iraq, I didn't expect the rest of the world to look at us - the ordinary British working people - and say DON'T BUY BRITISH because of the actions of our government, particularly when so many of us were opposed to that war, in the same way that many Russians don't deserve the current levels of abuse and alienation when many of them don't agree with the current invasion of Ukraine.

 

I'd be a bit steadier with defence of the Putin's rhetoric if I were you, given your BB Avatar name Had any abusive or threatening emails yet? After all if some people can confuse Pedophile with pediatrician.......!!

 

I haven't defended his rhetoric, I've questioned the meaning behind it. Yes, hadn't thought of that, maybe we are all at risk! Better not shout Red Army any more, there'll be a DON'T BUY BARNSLEY FC campaign and we'll be stuck with Conway forever.

 

What were Moscow and Minsk like?

 

My Chien Lee Barnsley F.C Chocolate Dildo came from China

 

So let's engage Russia and put it into practice?

 

There is a difference though that our state don't purposefully steal wealth and further bolster their military (quite the opposite). And if you've read any of my more political posts, you'll know I detest the current incumbents.

I don't know how true it is, but there are suggestions Putin is the richest man on the planet. That's some feat given he's been in the political classes and we can only imagine the levels of fraud, corruption and worse that go on behind the scenes. So given he steals wealth from everyday activities, I don't see how else you can apply pressure to stop.

It's either that, or we do absolutely nothing and by default, welcome war, murder, torture and suppression. I'm not comfortable with that.

 

It would be nice if he engaged in a ceasefire and stopped using illegal cluster bombs on civilian targets.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'd just like to know which side of the the fence you're on. So far your whole argument has been careering towards intervention but just stopping short. The references to bullies etc. The schoolyard rhetoric that escalates things. Yet in the nick of time you fall behind empathising with Ukranian's and saying you don't know a way forward.

Once that's buttons pressed it stays pressed. It's not 007 there's no one with the nuclear codes and the best quote I can find is from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade "there's no silver medal for second place".

 

In spite of the to-ing and fro-ing in this thread, going back to another thread where it became a debate about what is mental illness and does Putin suffer from it.
I think anyone considering launching a full on nuclear strike against a nation or group of nations (NATO) knowing full well they will retaliate leading to the loss of millions of lives, with a view that, if Russia does not exist nowhere else should should be nowhere near the seat of power. This after launching a war against a peaceful neighbouring state.


I may be out of sync with a few on here, but anyone considering pre-empting starting a nuclear war is unhinged (I do not know what the correct medical term is for this kind of dangerous and destructive thought process)
As a parallel, Hitler's generals, in his final days just before the fall of Berlin pleaded with him to surrender to save the suffering of the German people. His response was that the German people were weak, they had failed in the objective of the thousand year Reich and should therefore all suffer the same fate as Germany. i.e. they did not deserve to live and should all perish.

Putin displays complete contempt for his own people evidenced by his ruthless methods of maintaining his stranglehold on power. He is clearly frightened to the point of paranoia and obsessed with NATO's expansion to the East. That fear of losing power means he will do anything to hold onto it even if it means the total destruction of everything and everyone.

For those that think NATO can simply get involved militarily I fear his threat to hit the Red button is anything but a bluff. Unfortunately, Economic sanctions are really the only hand we have to play. Yes it indiscriminately hits the innocent Russian people hard, but at least the physical infrastructure remains undamaged and , unlike Ukraine, especially as Putin has now resorted to using unguided missiles, heavy bombardments of civilian areas and (allegedly) illegal cluster bombs innocent Russian civilian's lives are not being lost.

 

I'm on the side of peace and Ukraine retaining its sovereign right to exist. The problem with that is that Putin has contorted a position to vindicate (in his own mind at least) a full blown invasion.

And i think we need to take a reality check. What we say on here will have no impact at all as to what Putin chooses to do. So we can't escalate or de-escalate anything. We're voyeurs as the people of Ukraine have their lives and livelihoods affected for the worse.

I genuinely don't know what the answer is. I certainly don't want a third world war. It seems absurd, but for just about all of us, we'll have no experience of close hand war and what comes from it. It's also twisted in the extreme that given the effect of climate change, parties are content to destroy, churn up and pollute a bit more of our world.

So no, I don't want a war, who would? Do i want NATO to pile in? No. Do i want Europe to do what they can to impede Putin and give Ukraine a better chance to save itself? Yes.

Do I think Putin will do what he feels he has to regardless of whatever else happens? Yes.

Pick the bones out of that as you will, I'm still none the wiser what the best course of action or inaction is.

 

What do you suggest then? I do not think "Schoolyard rhetoric" was in evidence from DWL. He is just stating teh situation. i.e. no-one know what the answer is since MAD nuclear defence is only there to deter someone using a pre-emptive nuclear strike safe in the knowledge they would be no effective response. There has always been knowledge that it does not prevent conventional war.
Undeniably, Putin is a bully with few scruples. He is more than capable of carrying out his threat to launch a nuclear strike if NATO get involved militarily. We are already sailing close to the wind supplying weapons and munitions along with medical and humanitarian aid as it is. Doing nothing is not an option as he will not stop and being emboldened will no doubt at some point try to reclaim the satellite states West that were originally part of the USSR
The other side of the coin is that our only 'weapon' however unpalatable is to hit the Russian economy hard. Even that is not without risk if Putin is of a certain mindset (see my post above) but what else can we do against a tyrant.
So if appeasement is not an option, again, what is your solution to the crisis?