DON'T BUY ANYTHING RUSSIAN

Sorry I posted prior to seeing your response above. Just to say I agree 100% Our hands are tied and the frustration of the utter stupidity of Putin's war (and all war) where one man, even today, can have such an effect on so many people's lives shows we have not really evolved and are incapable of learning from past mistakes.
It was OK, I suppose, when we had nothing more sophisticated than castles for defence and Trebuchets with which to attack them but not now have the power to destroy all life as we know it on the planet. I do think if a virus ultimately doesn't wipe us out, our own stupidity will.

At least with a virus most other species will survive.

 

No worries at all. And I can only echo what you've said. We're in an age where a person, a country, can inflict untold indiscriminate damage from many miles away with little effort. And the only thing that stops them is risk of retaliation, their own morale compass and if the periphery of their structures have the collective will and ability to block such a thing.

The last two years have given me much more time to value simpler things and connect more with our environment and take joy in the most basic aspects of the natural world. We've looked more at how we live and week by week are taking steps to lessen the damage we cause just by existing.

But all that is nothing when people are being murdered in a land I've visited due to one mans ego and bloodlust.

I've said it before, we don't stand a chance as a species.

 

The last two years have made me value things a lot more too. That's such an eloquent way of putting things.

 

It's fair to say that our own government steals from its public regularly in the form of taxes and what they spend it on, how they cheat and how they twist a lot of things for their own ends. They frequently lie (i won't compile a list but look at how they used the Brexit bus for example for political and financial gain); Jacob Rees-Mogg (and I'm sure many more government/state members) profiting from Russian gas and the influencing of the state by oligarchs from the comfort of their mansions in London.

Back to the original question, I haven't heard that about Putin but if it is true that he is the richest man on the planet, NOT BUYING RUSSIAN will be a tiny, insignificant dent in his pocket (the equivalent to him dropping a 2 pence coin on the floor) but a huge dent in the ordinary working citizen of Russia. My point is that I don't think they deserve that, in the same way that Ukraine doesn't deserve Putin's troops, in the same way Putin's troops deserve much more than Putin who is leading many of them to their deaths, along with many citizens and soldiers of Ukraine. It's a huge mess. But it's important to remember it is governments and leaders that bring about chaos, war and mass murder, not the peaceful citizens on the ground who they claim to represent.

 

I don't think it's a good thing to equate taxation with divvying up assets or invisibly taking funds into personal control and avoiding the state legislature.

And as I've said, I detest our current incumbents. But even for their cronyism, their fraud, their self interests, their lies, their deceits and everything else, they aren't building up arms and invading innocent countries for made up reasons. Don't mistake that for supporting them, because I absolutely do not. But Putin has taken life multiple times with intent for personal reasons, we can't yet say that about our current government.

And I agree with you. The people don't deserve chaos, but it seems they can't change the status quo in Russia either through simple democracy. I read the next election is in 2024. He seems to have a pattern of invading or warmongering 2 years before an election that he then rigs, or suppresses the opposition through murder or imprisonment.

Neither of us know, but maybe there is a groundswell of support for Putin to lose face and lose power. I don't know how we get there, but maybe some people would accept short term difficulties. I'm in no position to say that with any authority though and its all too easy for westerners on an island to safely debate what may unfurl in time and what is morally right or not.

I don't envy anyone making the decisions right now.

 

Who is to say that by increasing sanctions, refusing to buy anything Russian, and making Russia and its people the enemy of the world will turn ordinary Russian citizens against Putin? It could have the opposite effect, if all they are left with is total dependence on an enforced (by the West) pariah state. They would have nowhere left to turn and would be at the complete behest of Putin.

And in terms of your first point, it may not be this current government, but the government of 2003 (Blair) did exactly that; we waged an illegal war against the will of our own people (and certainly against the will of Iraqis) for made up reasons i.e. 'weapons of mass destruction.' We are in no position to say we are the 'good guys' or peacekeepers or whatever. I am sure Bojo would mess it up royally and make it infinitely worse. I think we are probably in agreement there.

 

It would be wonderful to able to look at an action in isolation, but by default, every non action is an action. Sadly, every action or non action has a consequence.

So if the West don't do anything, Putin will carry on destroying Ukraine for his own whim (which he may do anyway). He may well decide to go beyond that. Are you ok with that?

Remember nothing of note was done when he tried to murder the Skripals. Nothing really was done when he murdered Litvinenko. Nothing was especially done when Nemtsov was assassinated. Nothing of note was done when he razed Grozny to the ground. Nothing of note was done when he annexed Crimea.

Doing nothing doesn't seem to be a deterrent to him. The only question left is do we think we should try and deter him in some way, or just let him do whatever he wants until he eventually dies (given he's gerrymandered the system to allow him to be president until 2036).

 

Obviously I'm not okay with the destruction of Ukraine, as I have previously stated.

I would also argue that history tells us that in the latter half of the 20th century whenever the US and Britain pair up, things generally don't go well for the world. You could look at all manner of conflicts that have rumbled on and no one has batted an eyelid - look at Syria.

I don't know what you would propose as a solution? I find it very difficult to come up with one, but what I do know in answer to the OP is that punishing the whole of Russia for something that their everyday citizens don't support is wrong and will only lead to more suffering and division in the world.

 

I don't think this is US and UK pairing up. This feels much more like a solidarity of Europe that UK and US are clinging onto the coat tails of.

Mainland Europe remembers the atrocities of WW2 and I think its why the EU is so strong, despite what many UK people would want us to think. I also wouldn't agree that people haven't batted eyelids. But you're right to highlight the destruction Putin supported in Syria too, including the use of chemical weapons (by Assad, maybe) on Syrias people.

I don't think doing nothing is ok. I don't think waging war with Putin is the right thing either.

Which leaves us with trying to apply non military pressure and hoping the people of Russia or Putins oligarchs, or his military overthrow him. I don't know the odds of that, but out of all options, it seems the one for most hope.

I think many are aware of the issues any sort of sanction would have. But as i said many times that hasn't been answered. Whats the alternative?

 

Every non action has a consequence. You're right. Are we making an enemy out of the Ukraine too?

 

There's so much complexity to that question, and its impossible to know at this point.

It also depends who "we" are. I suspect millions will flee to EU countries (if able) and it may well be a case of setting up a new home with the hope of returning to Ukraine one day. I doubt they will feel let down by the EU. And I suspect they will have forgotten DePfeffels bluster long before any return is imminent.

 

It feels like the rest of the world vs Russia (and potentially Belarus & China).

As for applying non military pressure i take your point. But doing what this thread suggests, and demonising the people of Russia by crushing their livelihoods is hardly going to give them the energy or confidence to overthrow Putin, especially in light of the fact that anti-Russian sentiment in the rest of the world is so high. It will just grind them down even more and cause more hopelessness for them.

 

I have mixed feelings about boycotts and sanctions - they seem to have worked in South Africa eventually but took a long time, and it was targeted at making life most difficult for those with the power and privilege. However in Iraq our sanctions of things like equipment for incubators killed a lot of babies, babies who didn't have much say in where they were born lets be honest. Generally speaking, punishing the general population - like in Iran over the last several years, seems to strengthened the grip of those in charge if they are prepared to tough it out - but who knows how close, for example, revolution is in somewhere like Iran - afterall they had many protests at elections - but violently repressed.

 

I'm not sure it is demonising the people of Russia though. It's in essence aimed at denying funds to Putin to wage war against innocent people. That's the essence in particular of what the EU set out to do, to stop arms being replenished or repaired.

There's no perfect solution. So if you don't want any innocent individuals impinged in Russia, then sanctions can't be used. Which means Putin profits as before and they can buy and sell as they wish and attack whoever they wish and continue with whatever murder, torture and genocide he wishes. Sadly thats not hyperbole either.

I'm afraid whatever is done is a lesser of all evils. No perfect solution exists, so we all have to look in our hearts and try and fathom however we can dilute ourselves while ever it is still palatable as we watch on.

I'm sure the people of Ukraine have already shifted to what needs to be done to merely preserve their existence, their right to live. If it escalates beyond Ukraine, it may well be that we need to too.

One final thing to pick up on what you mentioned. You say it feels like the rest of the world vs Russia. Doesn't that in itself say something about the actions of Putin? And that even China haven't sided with him (though still falling short of condemning his actions).

 

Sanctions took a long time to work in South Africa because the US and UK didn't apply them and preferred (under Reagan and Thatcher) to appease the South African government.

 

This ^^^

 

My friends. The answer to all this, is in my opinion, obvious.

It is to drink consistently and heavily for the next two weeks or so – maybe do the odd kebab as well – and then see where we are after that.

That’s my plan.

 

I've stopped watching the news and reading online, no twitter that's for sure. Its a healthier avoidance strategy!!

 

wrong thread.

 

LOL, always the one to lower the tone.