Does The Devil exist?

Whilst serving in her majesty's RN, I was returning from a particularly heavy Saturday night when i noticed a sign on a church that said "spiritualist morning, free tea and coffee, all are welcome" in goes me and sits at the back with a strong coffee. I'm listening to a women talking about a sexual experience with a ghost, big round of applause, then the vicar asks if anyone else has had a sexual experience with a ghost, up goes my hand and I'm invited onto the stage, vicar gets a few details, the gives me a big introduction "ladies and gentlemen, able seaman Yorky .........., to discuss his sexual experience with a ghost, me, Oh! I thought you said goat.
I'll get my coat.

 

Religion is far more popular than nationalism worldwide.

 

But neither hold a flame to chocolate, sugary drinks, tobacco and alcohol. It's what ever gives you comfort. Your two examples give some, but not nearly as much as the examples I gave. And we gravitate to what comforts us the most. Love gives the most, for almost all of us, but it's very difficult to find. And so we accept cheap imitations that get us through the night.

 

Not so sure. There are countries where having a religion gets above 90%.

For me it’s more stupid than believing in successful capitalism, but here we are.

 

Capitalism requires year on year growth on a planet with limited resources, which is impossible.

It has also failed. Twice. In 1929 and 2008. To be bankrolled by socialism. Sing us a song Alanis.

 

And your evidence in support of such a being is????

That would be organised religion is needed to keep people in check , even though a god is necessary for a religion to exist. Gods were invented by people to explain things they didn't know
eg what causes thunder and lightening, where does the sun go at night, what happens to us when we die etc etc ......

 

And more absurd.

 

These discussions often centre around whether more evil has been committed in the name of a god or by atheists, Stalin v Hitler v Mao etc.

The more interesting take on religion is the 'moral' one. I like to watch religious peoples heads explode when I explain that people don't 'need' a moral code from religion, and that surely it's better to 'do the right thing' because it's the right thing to do than to do it for some promised later reward.

It's sad but you rarely have to scratch much below the surface of any devoutly religious people to find they're just as corrupt, self serving and horrible as everyone else. The astonishing thing in the 21st century is the creeping influence of the american religious right into western europe.

 

Jethro by any chance. One of my favourites.

 

The Hitler -Stalin - Mao thing always gets me. People do horrible things for all sorts of reasons and for many religion is either a reason in itself or a justification.
I don't think any atheist has ever gone around killing in the name of nothing though.

 

My parents were my biggest influence especially my dad. an Hairy arsed miner who liked to drink with his mates. Smoke etc. He said nobody is better than you and vice versa. I understood the comment in context.
Chapel I went to as a kid emphasised and taught stuff from the bible. But I wouldn't say bible bashing. More emphasis on love they neighbour so to speak. So I don't knock em.
Those that say you will have to answer to God to get into heaven. "B0ll0x" But if it comforts some folk that's fine. . Neither Heaven or hell exists. Just good and evil.
In between is just naughty lol.
As a matter of possible contradiction btw. If any of my offspring were for say terminal. I'd be on my hands and knees. Begging to take their place.

 

I suppose Good and Evil don't actually exist in nature and are more just a judgement of whoever is judging, be that a individual or society as a whole.

 

They exist in nature in that when we do a good thing or a bad thing we know it inherently. If you help someone out, you feel good about it and they feel good about it. If you hurt someone, physically, emotionally, mentally, you know it. It isn't dependent on someone else's judgment on how they saw things, you feel it personally within yourself, you know it. It's like a lie that you hold onto.. if you don't eventually tell the truth, the lie grows and can make you feel unnatural and not genuine - when you reveal the truth the feelings of fakery and of insincerity go. The feeling that you hurt someone and controlled that hurt by not revealing it (and thereby hurt yourself) also goes when you tell the person the truth - the truth hurts, but it's good for both parties to tell the truth.

A good thing or bad thing aren't exclusive between people either. For example, if you freed a squirrel from a trap and gave it some food you'd feel good and you'd know that what you did was good; if you stood on the trap and watched the squirrel bleed out, you would know that what you'd done was evil. The judgment would come only from yourself, based on your natural, inherent feelings.

 

Evidence of the Devil. Yes. Comes from my old man.

He worked down the pit, a ripper at Elsecar Main for over 20 years. When I was very, very, small he’d have his mates round some afternoons and they’d sit round the fire sorting the world out. I thought this was great because they all did the strangest thing. They made noises at each other like animals – sounds they understood but I didn’t. I was too young to understand that, because they came from a place called ‘Poland’, they spoke in a different language. I was a fascinated. I understood nothing but got the drift of what was going on.

Sometimes they were serious, sometimes they argued, and then they’d have a huge roaring laugh. And sometimes it all went horribly wrong. It would happen very fast, shouting, a wild flash of anger, fear, hatred, a wave they were all swept up in. I was terrified. And then it would all slowly subside. I clearly remember the look in their eyes as they fell silent. It’s impossible to describe - the closest I can get is some deep, endless despair. This was something beyond all imagining and I’ve experienced nothing close to it since. This was so bad, so evil, I could find no way of defining it, other than ‘the devil.’ I came to recognise the word that triggered all that. ‘Rosyjski!’ (Russians).
As I grew up my father never talked about his past. It took me years to piece it together but I knew there was one thing I never ever dared talk to him about - the Russians. The men round the fire were only children when the Russians came. What happened to their families is what’s happening in the villages of Ukraine now.

We might look at Ukraine from afar and be appalled and argue the toss about good and evil. But only if you’ve experienced the ultimate evil can you understand. I haven’t experienced evil. But, in my father’s eyes, have seen what it does to those who survive it. That fear infected me and it’s always been there. The event of the past few weeks must have brought that fear up to the surface.

That’s my evidence for the Devil existing. Well, my own personal Devil.

 

Top post. Although I suspect psychopaths are a bit different.

 

My own personal belief is that psychopaths may be desensitized to the suffering they inflict on others, but I do think they recognise it. They may not be as affected as the average person in terms of the effect wounding others has on themselves, they may not be affected at all, but I do believe that they know inside that what they have done is evil/wrong. They still have feelings after all, even if in some cases it is hard to perceive. If anything psychopaths are the perfect example of good and evil despite judgment, because the judgment of others usually means nothing. They act out of their inherent impulses, and they don't care about what other people see. But deep down I reckon they know that if they go out and kill someone, for example, they have done something evil and wrong, even if their face remains motionless and appears to be devoid of any emotion.

 

You could be right. Have there been any examples I wonder of psychopaths being cured as it were. 'Cured' not being the right word, but perhaps accepting what they're doing is widely perceived to be wrong and modifying their behaviour?

 

The thing that people tend to ignore when questioning the existence (or non-existence) of 'God', is the existence (or non-existence) of the 'devil'. So you ask a very good question in your OP. People say 'well if God exists why is there so much suffering?' The answer is that if there is a God there is also the devil, and that's where suffering exists. Obviously there are differing factors based on which religion you look at, but the polarity of good vs evil is present in all of them. But people generally won't blame the devil, which is interesting. For those that don't believe in anything, I suppose they don't need to blame God or the devil at all.

 

It's a very interesting concept and I'm sure there are examples! I'd be keen to look into it, objectively of course. The question is, how do you know if a psychopath is telling the truth? But then the same could be asked of anyone. I suppose you'd be more inclined to believe a 'reformed' psychopath who is a free man/woman, as opposed to someone up for parole.