Back over in Ukraine...

That's fair enough mate. I took exception to someone else's asserion that Afghans were cowards. Along with Syrians and !ibyans. I notice that particular poster never accused the Caucasian Ukrainians of being cowards despite the flood of Ukrainian refugees to western europe.
Anyway my post to you was more in alarm as I didn't want to think you were agreeing with that point of view. I rate you a lot better than that. As I sa id there's a lot of reasons why the Afghan government forces collapsed. As for the Syrians...they have fought Assad for years.
Anyway, no offence intended.

 

None taken, ex military man, seen good an bad in many a man, friend an foe.

 

The End in sight,

 

Not yet, long way to go.

 

Has the previous big Russian invasion thread disappeared mysteriously? I can't find it even with the search. Have the Russian agents hacked this bbs? You (Soviet) Reds!

Anyway...

Apparently 17000 Russian citizens crossed the border and entered Finland during the weekend. Of course there's always a lot of traffic, since we share such a long border and it's still open for them for some reason, but there's been a significant increase during the couple of days, especially in younger men which isn't a surprise I suppose. Now, I see both pros and cons in this situation.

On the bright side, those men at least won't be murdering and raping more people in Ukraine, and it's a little slap on Putler's face that his own people are escaping to Finland that is also apparently run by the nazis. But on the other hand, a lot of those people are not escaping because they oppose the Russian terrorism in Ukraine, they only want to avoid being conscripted. It also may not be a good idea to let anyone from a hostile nation enter the country in the current situation. I still think that Finland should have closed its borders from the Russians months ago, and maybe let only asylum seekers in. People in Ukraine are dying and Russia have effed up the whole Europe, so why would be give them the luxury of "tourism" anyway?

 

Tomi, the vast majority of those coming over the Finnish border are from St Petersburg. Young professionals who are categorically against the war. Plenty of my friends and colleagues are trying to get out right now, including my brother in law who has a pregnant wife. They are people who have regularly attended anti-Putin meetings. Why should they be trapped in their own country and left to the mercy of a madman they despise and not allowed to travel based purely on their nationality? It's both illegal under international law, and completely immoral.

 

My partner is Ukrainian. These people escaping was happy to keep their mouths shut when Putin ordered the invasion, now it directly involves them they decide to make a stand?

Marvellous. Top guys them Russians .

 

Except as I mentioned, my sister and her husband attended anti-Putin protests on a regular basis. I've just this second finished a Zoom meeting with a client who is trying to salvage his business by moving it along with his young family to Portugal, where they have no roots and don't speak the language. He's in pieces right now, juggling his responsibilities towards his family, his business partner, and his 100+ employees who are now scattered across Europe. He and his wife also regularly attended opposition meetings until they became parents, at which point they decided that the risks were too high. And who can really blame them, in a country where protesting can land you anything from a severe beating by the police to ten years in prison? Is it really fair to judge people for being more than a little hesistant to speak their mind if the result could be their kids growing up with one of their parents behind bars?

You do realise that villifying an entire nation of 150 million based purely on where they were born is completely playing into Putin's hands? "The West hates us, they've always hated us and they want to destroy us." We should be making opposition-minded Russians as welcome as possible in Europe in order to further facilitate the brain-drain, not shutting the door. I also think that making people responsible for the actions of their government is setting a very dangerous precedent. Even in a democracy it would be dubious, but in a fascist dictatorship it's borderline absurd.

 

Well, it's a tricky situation for sure. I'm sure that there are a lot of decent people just trying to get out, but there are most likely some non-decent people too. Putin claims that Russia are at war against the west, and in recent years their propaganda machine has done its best to paint Finland with the nazi brush (so that they can denazify/liberate us when an opportunity comes) and rewrite the history in the most absurd ways. I don't think that an invasion is likely in the near future, but like you said, there's a madman in charge.

A lot of other countries are already no-go zones for Russia, so I feel that we're currently letting Europe down if we let Russians pass through our country. I also support the other EU sanctions, even though they hurt both sides, but what other choice is there? Putin won't stop until Russians collectively decide that they've had enough.

 

Am 'Liking' in agreement, John. There is so potential in that nation to be a good global player. And yet it feels, with the exception of defeating the Nazi's eastern front & Gorby's great efforts, the whole revolution was for nothing. Just replacing one despot with a series of others. It's so sad the people are resorted to fleeing their homes, just for speaking out..

 

You make a good point, I agree with nearly everything you have said. I just have a really hard time accepting these people, their fight is to be fought out in their own borders. I understand the punishment, but as you said, 150 million ruskis… unfortunately they’re brainwashed into believing this nazi ******** and many of which and I dare say the vast majority agree with this war.

my Mrs has family in Russia, they called them to tell them what was happening and their response is always the same. “Don’t worry, Putin is sending our boys to help you be free again”

The Russian people are ostriches, they’ve buried their head in the sand through fear. However if so many are against this war, there’s strength in numbers. Not just 50 students gathering in Moscow saying no to war. Mobilise a movement properly.

If they do not, as my partners family says. They make excellent fertiliser for our beautiful land.

 

I can see the arguments for that Tomi, but the Russians who regularly visit Finland, who are mainly middle class educated St Petersburgers know full well that Finland is not a Nazi country. Also, Putin actually mentioned in one of his less bizarre speeches of late that he has no problem with eigher Finland or Sweden joining NATO is they have no territorial disputes with them.

Opposition-minded Russians have long had enough of Putin, but are quite limited in what they can practically do to get rid of him. But as for those who are wavering, supposedly civilised European countries blocking entry to Russians purely based on the fact that they are Russians seemingly confirms Putin's propaganda that the whole world hates them. Illegally shutting the borders to Russians based on their nationality is one of the biggest gifts EU countries have ever given to Putin.

 

Out of interest, whereabouts in Russia are your wife's relatives from, and what would you consider their social class and education to be? The vast majority who are in favour of the war are quite similar to working class Brexiteers in the UK who blamed all their woes on "them foreigners taking all our jobs while simultaneously claiming benefits". Just think about how easy they were to manipulate, and that's in a country with free media. So it's hardly surprising that people whose only access to news is state-sponsored propaganda end up completely brainwashed. Obiviously this isn't the case in the big cities where the majority of the residents are well-educated internet users. Hence support for the war is much lower in Moscow and St Petersburg. But still, mobilising any sort of resistance is not easy. Belarus is a case in point. An estimated 70% of the population voted against Lukashenko, yet despite their best efforts they weren't able to depose him. Overthrowing a government is a very tough undertaking.

 

Well at lot of this stems from the end of WW2

In 1946 Stalin was furious when the Americans published ‘Soviet Nazi Relations before WW2.’ This highlighted the secret cause in the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact where they agreed to partition Poland between them in 1939 and divide Europe into respective spheres of influence. The Soviets and Nazis were, as many suspected at the time, allies.

,In response Stalin published ‘The Falsifiers of History’ that explained his version of events and became the standard for educating Russia about the War. In a nutshell the Nazis were encouraged and aided by Britain and America capitalists to attack the Soviet Union. (There was no war before 1941 by the way). ‘Nazi’ became a short-hand for anyone who opposes the Russians.

I met an East German lad once who told me that he’d never heard of Hitler or the Holocaust at school and that concentration camps were built to imprison capitalist enemies.

If that’s what successive generations are taught, that’s what they believe. As Merde Tete says the more educated know what’s going on, but as for the masses…

And is it really that strange? The masses here have access to a lot of information. And still vote Conservative.

 

They are from the Kursk region but they were moved (without choice I’m told) to work in the far north where they only see a few hours of sunlight per day?

Her family or some of them fled to Tbilisi, apparently Georgia have an open door policy to Russians despite their tensions with them too as the new government are slightly pro Russia?
They regularly report on seeing Russian cars with the Z in the window. These people who have lived in a normal country, seeing the news we all see and yet they still support putins war.
Of course I’m slightly biased, this war has affected every Ukrainian. Every family has a member with a story. The sad fact is Russians have denied and held back Ukraine for the last 120 years. They destroyed their history, banned their language, deported all Ukrainians from crimea to the Dagestan area of Russia and replaced them with higher ranking Russians who served in the red army, hence why Crimea voted to leave Ukraine in that sham referendum.
Russia is a terrorist state and a menace to the world, this needs dealing with. Ukraine are spanking them across their land, and Putin knows this. Why are Russians who are being drafted not asking why? Or where the current serving army is? That alone should cause mass rioting.

They better hope they surrender, because if not they’re pure cannon fodder. Unfortunately I have next to no sympathy for them, it’s only they who can prevent this.

 

Really feel for the Russian people who are against the war and Putin in particular but it’s up to them to put a stop to this .
As someone who was an activist in the past it’s the only way to make change .
I understand the penalty’s weren’t as severe for activism in Britain but people have been severely beaten in Britain and have died , with inquires still not satisfactory as to what happened ,
I know Putin has made it very dangerous to protest but even he wouldn’t survive hundred of thousands arrested in mass protest , the politicians would get nervous and would plan against him .
Ordinary people in the poorer areas are coming together to protest against conscription only because it affects them but together with the young men fleeing the country would make a formidable force and would gather momentum.
I can see GRs point of view that his wife’s family are suffering not just arrest but thousands of lives a week are lost in Ukraine and if Russian people just flee nothing will change ,
In dangerous times the people need to rise up they are the only ones who can stop this , Putin has proved he doesn’t care about his Troops in Battle or the Ukrainians but if hundreds of thousands rise up in his own Country the Duma will get nervous .
It’s also true what GR has said that the vast Russian population didn’t rise when the atrocities in Ukraine were being perpetrated only when it affected a vast majority and potentially even greater conscription did protest start .
Putin would not survive a mass uprising and only then will we have peace and there are people in the wings who could take advantage once it starts , the Russian people have form for uprisings against powerful rulers and it needs exploiting for all our sakes .

 

Yes, they did it pretty effectively in 1917....

 

That was the main one but they got shafted out of it by far right Bolsheviks pretending to be communist’s,
The last and most recent one was in the eighties and nineties under Gorbachev and Yeltsin , turning around troops and tanks in Red square ,
Unfortunately that had been high jacked by mafias and right wing Nazis pretending to hate right wing Nazis which In reality is anyone who disagrees with Putin.

 

Have you read the books by Bill Browder? I've read the first 2, they are basically about how Putin and his criminal mates robbed the country of it's wealth and took control. They're excellently written and you have to keep reminding yourself that they're not John le Carre novels...

 

Eyup, Tomi. I have Finnish friends from bands & they are saying exactly the same. Most live back in their homeland now. Scared of Putin, too old to fight a war.? I met with a couple old pals on Saturday & we talked about this wonderful band who had reformed & played in Helsinki the night before. I was in tears when i saw the footage. Took me back to schooldays, early gigs & the first band I truly loved..Bass player is one of my best friends.xx