Starmer v Corbyn

It isn't, but that's the crux of the problem.

I'm aware of the choices we face, and know I'll vote Labour. The others won't win or are Tories, and this current government are genuinely bordering fascism at the minute with their small boats rhetoric (Braverman's 'billions are coming' is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard a politician say).

To answer questions I've been asked elsewhere:

People of my generation are apathetic because since New Labour and Spin, possibly Iraq, honour and accountability have bled out of politics. To use an odd example (Malcolm Tucker-esque?), look at Neil Hamilton. Caught taking stuffed envelopes in the Tory sleaze years of the early nineties. So he resigned. As he should've. Compare that to that single shitty aspect of Boris Johnson's behaviour as an MP and PM. Excuses, blatant lies and literal changing of the rules to avoid doing anything about being caught.

It's a Pavlovian response. It's why you just hear 'they're all the same'.

I understand the 'baby steps' approach. But what that will lead to, is five years of Labour government during which the Tories recalibrate and get rid of the deadwood, and come back much stronger under Hunt or Gove, who's been playing his cards suspiciously close to his chest for a while now. This isn't 1997, it's 1992.

An example of what might happen: Hunt's childcare reforms. Slated to begin Sept 25, pretty much just after a GE will have taken place and the Tories will have lost by a long chalk. They're popular, so Starmer can't row back on them, but he does have to implement them immediately. He also has to fund them, reducing his budgets for other areas significantly. In the meantime, the Tories sit on the sidelines and claim credit for the idea, while mocking Labour for having no new policy of their own or being unfit to govern.

This then chimes with daily mail readers we've been wooing for the last **** knows how long, who vote Tory in 2030 and Labour enter opposition for another three terms.

We need unity, not infighting, and to fight elections in the front foot. Someone else put it better than me about how all this has come about through Starmer breaking his 10 pledges and then the NEC intervening to prevent candidates standing. Corbyn should have just been allowed to continue to be a backbench constituency MP.

 

This. 100%

 

There are loads of far right lies about Corbyn. Terrorist sympathiser. Absolute rubbish.
Anti semite. Utter rubbish.
Looking at the current loons governing Israel anyone with an ounce of common sense would oppose them and, no doubt, be painted as anti semitic by some.

 

Again. This. Well said.
Starmer cannot afford to veer too far left and risking losing the election.
That aside how anyone can look at the Labour front bench, compare them with the likes of Johnson, Patel, Braverman, Kwarteng, Gullis, Rees Mogg, Truss, Hancock and say they're all the same absolutely shocks me.

 

Whoops!

 

The Isrealis have somehow managed to make themselves bullet proof in the eyes of the world' its some achievment.

 

We need to get back on the horse asap , 3 points against Morecombe this saturday would be great

 

Quite right, it being the start of the Turf Flat season at Doncaster!

I'd recommend Ehraz in the 3.00 (Cammidge Trophy) over six furlongs. Hills go 10/1. Hopefully they'll still have enough to pay me out after their big fine. Skynobet also go 10/1 but good luck getting them to lay a bet.

 

Where has this idea that Corbyn nearly won the 2017 General Election come from? He was 63 seats away from winning even a single seat majority, 55 seats behind the Tories, who formed an unworkable minority government, propped up by a bunch of crackpots in Northern Ireland. Milliband was only 30 seats behind Corbyn in the previous election, twice as close to what Corbyn did as Corbyn was to winning. Polling nearly as many votes as the Tories won’t win an election with our system. It’s seats that count, not votes.

Corbyn would never win a General Election in this country, because without the seats lost to the SNP in Scotland he wouldn’t win enough seats in England, for 2 reasons. Firstly, his policies (almost all of which I agree with, by the way), go against the self interest of many of the voters he would need to sway. And secondly, and most importantly, the actual powers that be wouldn’t let him. The right wing media, influencing powers on social media, etc, did a complete number on him.

In order to get elected, Labour needed to attract voters that Corbyn couldn’t attract. This needed a move away from the more radical policies, combined with a blander, less controversial leader that is harder for the right wing press and the government to demonise. When was the last time a left wing Labour leader won a GE? Way before most on here were born. Times have changed, the country is different. We don’t have a large traditional working class any more. There is no point having the best policies, but never winning.

Corbyn is still, rightly or wrongly, toxic to Labour’s chances of winning the next GE. Just watch the next PMQs. Johnson had to resort to name calling. All Sunak can throw at Starmer is either “nobody knows what you stand for” or “you supported Corbyn”, which are basically the new ‘get Brexit done’ type slogans. It’s surprising how much the former has stuck with the public, so once again a Tory slogan has worked. I regularly hear people parroting ‘nobody knows what he stands for’,

Corbyn is, I’m afraid, stuck with the anti-semitism thing. It is too engrained to even begin to try to convince people to actually look at the evidence. It just goes to show what having control of the media and social media can do. We had a PM who is on record demonstrating his Islamophobia, leading the accusations of a man who has never said or done anything antisemitic in his life, and it worked. Crazy. But it just goes to show what Corbyn was up against. He was never going to get close to winning.

Starmer has gone too far, without a shadow of a doubt, but at the moment he still looks likely to win the next GE. The Tories are very unlikely to claw it back, because they have caused, and are causing, far too much damage. I’m not even sure that many of them actually want to win the election. They are now just creating a mess for Labour to inherit, to make it impossible for them to govern. A spell on the sidelines to regroup might be just what they need, especially as it’s easy to be in opposition, where none of your ideas are actually put to the test, particularly after leaving the government with an almost impossible task.

I also suspect that they are wanting Labour to repair the Brexit mess by doing things that they couldn’t do, without killing off what’s left of their support. If Labour take us back into the single market, for example, they can make a big noise about it for their supporters, whilst hoping the furore will die down once the public realise we are better off, so they can just forget about it when they get back in.

But there’s a long way to go yet and the biggest threat to Labour now comes from within. Starmer has clearly worked out that wooing Tory and floating voters is the most important thing he needs to do, even if it means he loses some Labour voters on the left. He can win by losing some traditional Labour voters, but he can’t win without winning a lot of Tory voters. It is starting to become a problem though, as he is losing more and more, and the ones he is losing are now actively campaigning against him. He’s stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I am hoping that if he does get elected the party can slowly start creeping in the other direction. He can’t do anything too radical, or he’ll just be out at the next election and in come the Tories for another 15 years. But if it’s done slowly, the middle England voters might not notice and might even go along with it. It’s all we can hope for really, cos the alternative, if this lot stay in, is full on facism.

I certainly don’t understand the ‘Labour are watered down Tories, so I’m voting Liberal’ school of thought. A traditional Labour voter voting for anyone other than Labour, apart from in seats where Liberal are the main challengers to the Tories, are effectively voting for the Tories. And are we forgetting that a) the Liberals actually put the Tories in power only a few elections ago and b) the Liberals handed Johnson an election when we had the Tories in an impossible position, in a minority government, unable to win a vote and on the brink of breaking up. Had the Liberals not called the election the Tories could have imploded. And yet Labour voters want to side with them?!? Crazy!

And just a quick note on Starmer breaking his pledges. Has anything happened since he was made his pledges and was elected leader? A pandemic? Brexit being (sort of) implemented? A war in Europe? Three changes of PM? The economy tanking? The NHS plunged to breaking point? A government marching to facism? Things change, and are changing rapidly at the moment, so of course policy and goals are going to change. He’s also trying to get elected, so he needs to make whatever changes he needs to make to achieve this.

The Tories and the media are looking to exploit any chink. Unfortunately, although standing on the picket lines would have been the right thing to do it would have reduced their chances of winning the next election. Similarly with Brexit, if he was to start speaking honestly about it the Tories and press would be all over it and it could seriously lose him votes up here. As I said, there’s no point being right and losing. Whilst I am far from happy with many things Starmer has said and done, since he took over, I’m going to reserve final judgement until I have seen what he does in power. The first step to getting anything to change is to change this government and after that, if Labour are not making the changes you want them to make shout it from the rooftops, but if we allow the Tories to get back in what comes next is unthinkable.

 

Any tips for Saturday?

 

Personally, I've never really had a problem with Corbyn, he seems a decent enough bloke and I agree with some of his political views. However, his election as Labour leader could not have come at a worse time for this country. The Brexit referendum called by the cowardly Cameron put Corbyn in the position of co-leading the remain campaign with the pig shagger. Corbyn, being of the old Labour Left is at heart anti EU. This was clearly evident to anyone who watched him in action during the campaign and contributed strongly to the leave vote.

 

6770"]Personally, I've never really had a problem with Corbyn, he seems a decent enough bloke and I agree with some of his political views. However, his election as Labour leader could not have come at a worse time for this country. The Brexit referendum called by the cowardly Cameron put Corbyn in the position of co-leading the remain campaign with the pig shagger. Corbyn, being of the old Labour Left is at heart anti EU. This was clearly evident to anyone who watched him in action during the campaign and contributed strongly to the leave vote.[/QUOTE]
Starmer was Shadow Brexit Secretary at the time

 

Starmer a rich man's kinnock ....not warmed to him from day one if I'm honest....

 

That is precisely my intention.

 

The sooner Andy Burnham steps back into the fold the sooner we have a labour leader who can unite the party...In my opinion they were running scared of JC that's why the elite and their controlled media outlets went after him like a dog with a bone unfortunately they succeeded in convincing the public he was a terrorist and the devil incarnate...JC was the working man's last chance for some time, at wrestling back some type of power and balance....JC is not a weather vain politician unlike some Starmer included.

 

It depends where you look, the mainstream media don't cover it in any detail at all, but the UK MOD and the Institute of War put out regular bulletins...but so do the Ukrainians, one guy to look out for is Operator Starsky, he took part in the defence of Hostomel Airfield, the most important battle of the early part of the war. He comes across as very balanced. There is another whose name I can't just remember has been doing a morning update for months now, so far his information has been spot on, he is very low key and so far factual, he explains every advance or retreat and why, but obviously doesn't give too much real time info away, he has explained the defence of Bakhmut in great detail and whilst others have been predicting it to fall for months he has been saying not, he seems to be party to very accurate information. The upshot of it seems to be that Russia's spring offensive has blown itself out with relatively minimal gains, but massive losses in troops, mainly the Wagner PMC as Russia have the regular army in more defensive positions awaiting Ukraine's counter offensive with the new kit the West is supplying. There is a website called Oryx that counts equipment losses from satellite imagery, no-one appears to doubt it.. it is predicting that by the 1st of April Russia will have lost half its heavy armour...which constitutes most of the modern stuff.

 

During the referendum campaign?????

 

Well Ehraz is on Saturday (3.00).

In the Lincoln (3.35) I'm on the front three, Al Mubhir, Awwaal and Wanees. But I backed them a week or two ago when the prices were a bit more generous. If you combine them now at the best available odds you will come out with a bet at around 5/4, which represents a 44% chance of one of them winning. Whether that represents any value is questionable.

In the Doncaster Mile (4.10) I like the look of Lusail. He didn't win last year, but might reasonably be expected to have come on at four. He will not be inconvenienced by soft ground, and looks to have a bit of a class edge here. This race would represent a class drop, as four of his last six runs have been at Group 1 level.

These of course are not based on the final declarations, which will be available from about 11 am tomorrow.

 

Of the last election

 

You’re spot on about Corbyn’s 2017 result. Good amount of votes but under FPTP he never had a chance. Keep seeing Owen Jones etc (who I liked as a writer, but don’t like as an “influencer”) using 2017 as a reason Labour should be further to the left. It should be the opposite.

And as for the idea that the tories/ powers that be were scared of him - they weren’t. They were laughing at him. He was easy for them to defeat. It’s sad but true.

People also ignore the May government being a shambles with brexit issues too. That fed into the 2017 result.

Most importantly:
If you don’t think the labour option is left wing, just look at the shadow cabinet. Rayner, Nandy, Lammy, “Red Ed” Miliband. It’s a good bunch. This is the cabinet we could have. Let’s not mess this up!