Grand national

That's the point - if every effort is made to avoid the deaths and they still keep happening then surely the race itself is cruel. Why don't you consider where the line is now if you haven't considered it before?

For me I think the acceptable deaths line would be an average of 1 death per 500 participants at lowest.

 

The problem you have there is that the course has been, and continues to be modified on safety grounds. It is considered to be currently much safer than it was. So there would be some difficulty projecting statistics about past casualties forward onto the race as it is now staged. I am not persuaded that it is inherently cruel.

 

The grand national week makes nearly as much money as the bookies take on racing for the rest of the year for a decent number of the shops, not all and I don’t know about online, but I’d suggest it would put a huge dent in all the businesses if it wasn’t there - except the Cheltenham week, which also takes a lot. Which is of course also a jumps meeting. Those two meetings support a lot of the rest of the year for some shops and they might well go under without it; or they’d have to find other ways of making more from their regulars as the once a year money dries up - that has a lot of risk. Then there’s the subsidiary money made. Liverpool would be ok you’d think but Cheltenham and the surrounding area makes so much money from the tourists there for that single week that a lot of local businesses would go under if the festival was ended.

I think it would either kill racing altogether or if not, make thousands of people unemployed both directly involved in racing and otherwise. The jockeys, trainers, horses and even courses are completely different for flat racing as they are National Hunt; they are essentially different industries. The national hunt wouldn’t survive just having bumper races (flat races for horses that will go on to hurdle and the jumps jockeys). The jockeys for the jumps tend to be a bit bigger and heavier than the flat jockeys; they couldn’t move across to ride the flats as they already cut as much weight as they safely can anyway, most likely. It is also a very different skill set for both horse and jockey. Usain Bolt wouldn’t have been too clever running an Olympic steeplechase.

There’s no getting away from the fact that jumps racing does have a bigger element of risk to both horse and rider. I don’t think anybody tries to pretend any different.

There isn’t an easy solution to this, as there’d be years of legal wrangle and fighting if there was a ban suggested; and as I’ve said, I think a ban would be completely wrong. Too many people’s livelihoods, many in racing and betting but thousands upon thousands more when the support activities, hospitality and leisure etc are taken into account, would be taken away.

 

Interesting figures around death in sport:


The most dangerous sport in the world is rugby. There is an average of 52 deaths per year in this sport. The next most dangerous sport is American Football with an average of 36 deaths every year. There are many sports out there with high rates of deaths.

Football (soccer) actually doesn’t even make it into the top 10 most dangerous sports in terms of death rates. Here they are:

1) Boxing (45 deaths per 100,000 participants)
2) Horse racing (35 deaths per 100,000 participants)
3) Surfing (34 deaths per 100,000 participants)
4) Skiing and snowboarding (25 deaths per 100,000)

So it doesn’t look particularly good for the jockeys either.

 

Absolutely, but it appears we should also be banning rugby, American football, surfing and skiing/snowboarding.

 

The difference is that human participants can make an informed decision about whether to take part given the risks, horses can't.

 

Totally agree, although horses can and do refuse to race/jump regardless of whether they know the risks involved. I’d argue that a lot of sports people don’t know or understand the actual risks involved, just as many tradespeople don’t take the risks of asbestos or silica dust seriously, but we don’t have people trying to stop rugby matches or ski jumping or constructions sites on the basis that it’s dangerous and someone might die.
I’m not defending horse racing by the way, it’s just an observation on what humans care about.

 

When I go out on my horse I much prefer to take the hounds along and go fox hunting.
Much more civilised.

 

Well, you say that, but speak to any horse owner, and they will tell you that if a horse doesn't want to do something, it bloody well won't do it. Chap I know is involved in horse racing and says that in training, they'll run around in groups jumping fences on their own without prompting.

And how do we know that people are making informed decisions? Better the Government tells you what you can and can't do, I think.

But, ultimately, I think it should be banned, along with snooker, oil, definitely rugby and probably football too. Heading the ball should definitely be banned and I'm glad those discussions are now taking place. But I also think cars should be banned and cycling.

 

What about the hokey pokey?

 

If you're referring to the song, "hokey cokey", then perhaps. Or at least it should come with a warning at the start of the song that if participants "turn around" too vigorously, they might seriously hurt themselves. I don't think parties and large gatherings are safe, though, and we'd probably be better off banning them.

 

No yer silly sod. I mean that the problem is that on the extremes you have the hardcore anti animal cruelty protesters and on the other extreme you've got the gambling addicts and their views are so deep that they'll never reach a compromise.

I wasn't saying that everyone who gambles is an addict, I had a sweepstake on the national myself. I was talking about the extreme views of those who are so affected that they'll never agree, not the majority of people who like a bet.

 

A horse is around 8 times more likely to die in a jump race than a flat according to figures from 2019 (least I think it was 2019)

 

In terms of risk to life the national is around the same as the isle of man TT isn't it? The only difference is how much choice the participants have which just from reading this thread appears debatable

 

Attitudes on this board have changed somewhat from 10 years ago when I was roundly hammered & bullied, for suggesting the National was a cruel, barbaric event..
Mind you, there were more total ****s on here, back then..

 

Not sure about that

 

What would a horse be doing in a flat?

What if the lift is broken?

 

I’m still here.!!

 

Me too…