ULEZ

How far are we off hydrogen fuel?

The stuff I've read on this suggests that that will be the way forward, and it may not require the supporting structure that EV's do. But I'm not sure how far away we are from hydrogen being a viable alternative. Might ask the same question about 'self-charging' technology - I still remember those little dynamos you used to have on your bike that turned with the wheels. Maybe there's an AI version around the corner?

 

All electric cars self charge when driving, but due to to loss of energy in sound, movement and heat, you still need to charge.

The next one around the corner is the 700 mile quick charging battery that Toyota claim they’ve nearly got…

 

One of the key requirements in the move to be cleaner and more sustainable is to be more efficient. We need to produce energy using renewal sources but we need to be efficient about how we use it.

The vast majority of hydrogen is currently produced using fossil fuels. So that achieves nothing. It can be produced using electrolysis which is green hydrogen, but no one has any solutions as to how to produce green hydrogen at scale and it is massively more expensive.

On top of that, using energy to produce hydrogen, to then transport it somewhere else, to then store it, then pump it, and then burn it to make electricity to power a car is in total about 4 times less efficient than just putting the energy in a battery and using that to move the car.

Then there is the massive cost of building an infrastructure. You can't just decide to take all the existing petrol pumps and dispense hydrogen from them. Hydrogen pumps cost about a million quid each. Therr are only about 5 in the country and shell closed 2 or 3 of theirs this last year.

All told, I believe it to be a non starter. People often say "I'm waiting for Hydrogen because they heard someone else say it and it seems an easy way to just keep the status quo for now until this magic bullet arrives. I think it's use in cars will always be a niche area.

 

They have been saying that for 6 years.

 

Don't worry, nuclear fusion is only 20 years away...

 

It boils my pi55 that every wind turbine isn't used 100% of the possible time it can be.

 

ULEZ isn’t primarily about climate change, it’s about public health. Old petrol and diesel kick out some really nasty fumes, and London is a very densely populated city with far too many cars.

 

The race to all electric by this government is bloody stupid IMHO.
They could have made a big dent by spotting and eliminating the older cars that aren't fit to be on the road, we have all seen and smelled them them pouring out crap out of their exhausts.
Forcing folk into buying electric cars that will depreciate at an alarming rate, who is going to want the current ones when they are second hand and when the industry has continued to improve beyond them?
Then there is the support network for them in the form of chargers, it can't cope now, even if there are enough charging points can we produce the electricity for them and everything else? Plus what about the number of folk that don't have a drive so can't even charge at home?
I'm sure we could have made major inroads on air quality just by continuing improvements on current engines until the electric cars had been improved further to have longevity.

 

Why not consider something relatively cheap and quick, like cutting speed limits and enforcing them vigorously.
Why not improve public transport and make it a government run non profit making industry, which would encourage people not to use their car.
Why not look at a way of drastically reducing meat production.
These don't seem be exactly Draconian measures when compared to the effects of climate change.

 

There are so many untruths and misconceptions in there it's hard to know where to start. But all of it is the stuff that is repeated every single day in the MSM so it's little surprise that these myths perpetuate.

There is no reason to expect that in the long term, the second hand value of EVs will follow any different pattern to the second hand value of ICE cars. Second hand values have been all over the place in the last year for various reasons. First, they were over inflated because of the lack of supply due to the pandemic and then Ukraine. Then, earlier this year they took a nosedive because Tesla discounted their prices massively and it had the effect of changing the value of every other in comparison. But long term, any new car will lose 50% of its value in 3 years. That's always been the case and EVs are no different

Why would people buy the current cars when industry continues to improve them? Because they can't afford the new ones of course. Why do people buy any second hand car when a new one is better? Silly point of view.

Yes it can cope. And it is coping. We need many more chargers but it is happening, at some pace. The number of chargers in the country has increased around 38% just in the last year. The situation is massively different from when I got my first EV only 3 years ago. We don't need enough chargers right now for everybody to drive EV because it isn't the case that everyone will drive EV tomorrow. We need it to keep pace with the uptick, and in my view, it is doing that.

Yes, it's more of a challenge if you can't charge at home. But it's not a massive issue in terms of practicality although it does significantly alter the costs because public charging is much more expensive. But the majority of people drive less than 10k miles a year. That's 200 a week. That's one charge per week on a public charger. Hardly impossible. There are companies out there who are installing chargers in lamp posts. This is mainly in major urban areas like London but it will hopefully become more prevalent. But even if it doesn't, its not impossible to drive EV with no home charging.

As for the ability of the national grid to cope, I suggest you watch the widely available video on the subject from the head of the Narional Grid. He's not concerned so I am more inclined to believe him than you. It is estimated that we will need around 30% increase in the total grid capacity to cope. Bear in mind that we use a significant percentage less electricity now than we did in 1990 which was when the nation's total requirement peaked. Its been falling ever since.

 

Absolutely. All these things need to be done. If only we had a political system in this country that allowed us to make serious long term planning decisions instead of playing gesture politics and engaging in popularity contests.

It was said on the news last night that both Labour and the Tories are contemplating the effects of the by-election results this week and contemplating rowing back on environmental policies for popularity reasons, even as Southern Europe burns. I am just about done with the whole sh.itshow personally. We don't just need a change of government. We need a change of political representation now. It doesn't work any more.

 

any new car will lose 50% of its value in 3 years. That's always been the case and EVs are no different

Why would people buy the current cars when industry continues to improve them? Because they can't afford the new ones of course. Why do people buy any second hand car when a new one is better? Silly point of view.

Not going to argue with the rest because you are obviously committed.
But this, silly point of view? No its not, in this case at some point people will be forced to buy inferior models because they have to, simply because they can't afford any better!
And why do people buy second hand when a new one is better?
Easy because they have a better sense of value, in conventional cars new ones aren't always better the often have minor tweaks and only appeal to egotists who have money to burn.

 

Very good point, couldn’t agree more. We also need to change the attitude that says climate change is a problem for government. It’s a problem for us all.

 

Take your point about new cars and why some people buy them. That's very true.

But your suggestion is that people won't buy today's current crop of EVs as if any new advancements will make them obsolete. They won't be obsolete, they will just not be as good as the new offerings. But they will be perfectly good cars for the next set of owners down the track, just like they are perfectly good cars for the current owners. People will buy them when they fall into their price range. We do have to get rid of this myth that is perpetuated that the battery will be dead after 7 years for people to start trusting that they can buy them without undue concern. But that myth will be blown through experience, when they can see that actually, cars are 7 years old now and their battery still works.

I think a good idea would be to make battery state of health checks mandatory at the point of selling a car (certainly in the trade) to provide confidence that people are not buying a car where the battery has been abused. But other than that, a normal second hand market will thrive for EVs just like for ICE.

 

I think they have to turn it into ammonia to transport it.

 

"For our today, we took your tomorrow" seems to be our legacy for future generations to enjoy. We can't even establish a clean air zone without people bleating and whining about the inconvenience it causes them.

 

I'm a self confessed petrol head, I like to drive fast and I particularly love the sound of the engine, We've x2 3 litre V6 cars on our drive and I will never ever have an elecric car.

I used to commute 5 days a week to an office now I go in once month.

 

It seems to me that as far as Londoners go, the most populist policy would be a complete abandonment of ULEZ and a huge government grant to reduce the cost of funerals.

 

I too love a fast car, when our Tesla was in the garage for repairs (smashed up by a stupid BMW driver) we hade a 5 litre Mustang as a replacement. It was amazing.

But... the Tesla **** all over it for acceleration and that's where the fun is.