A Dark Period in British Life

or this one

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I did say some not all.

 

Or this one?

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did individual and collective responsibility govern Westminster life then. Absolutely. Would the day to day lying of today’s political figures (from all parties) be career ending. Absolutely

 

I have no responsibility to vote Labour. Any party that wants peoples votes should earn them. it Is on Labour to present a positive policy programme that inspires people to vote for them. That’s literally their job. Just not being the tories but ultimately implementing the same policies doesn’t appeal. They could abandon their commitment to austerity as a starting point

Labour have been quite clear in saying that they don’t want left wing votes. I will vote Green conscience free and be our campaigning and leafleting for them if you want more of the same politics we have had since 2010 then vote Labour because they are clearly telling you they won’t change anything.

I want politics run by decent truthful committed passionate people. I see none of that in Labour.

 

so ok to lie half the time?

 

Reeves’ seat does appear pretty safe - though the majority was much reduced last time out wasn’t it?

You should be fine in your assumption (and you can vote however you choose of course), but people in closer contested seats really need to consider who they want in government, acknowledging the only options.

Aiming for a hung parliament is a huge risk too.

 

well dodged.

 

.

 

No that’s the point of the thread. Lying in politics shouldn’t be rewarded.

it’s really as straightforward as that.

Say Wes Streeting stands to be the next Labour leader on a policy platform of privatising the NHS, reduced union rights, a hawkish foreign policy and a firm commitment to austerity led politics and trickle down economics. If he won that election on that basis and people wanted to vote for him as leader on that basis then fair enough. He would have a mandate. Starmer has no mandate for what he is doing because he lied to get in office.


it’s the lies I’m bothered about not the party. No one should be rewarded for lying. I see a vote for either of the parties as a vote for outright liars.

 

What's he dodged? Nothing wrong with calling Starmer a liar. If Labour end up being a great government if and when in power all well and good but Starmer is a liar. Be nice if some people stop 'dodging' that fact. Johnson is a liar. Starmer is a liar. What's the issue?

 

lt definitely wouldn’t. Any party can include it in their manifesto and enact it. In fact like voter ID you don’t even have yo put it in your manifesto.

 

Johnson lied. He said things that were factually untrue and he knew them to be. He has done that all his life. He is a pathological liar. Sunak keeps lying through his teeth. There are several examples this past week alone. To say that Starmer is even in the same ball park as Sunak or, especially, Johnson is just desperate. The only politician as bad as Johnson is Trump. The right wing press are desperate to start the ‘same old Labour, tax and spend’ headlines. It’s the only ammunition they would have to target the key seats that will win/lose the election, by scaring the floating voters or Tory voters who are considering voting Labour that Labour are just going to make them poorer. The press have done it every election, cos Labour have always allowed them to, by walking straight into the traps.

Starmer has changed his stance on a lot of things. Quite a lot has happened since he got the job. A pandemic, a war, a cost of living crisis, the Tories crashing the economy and giving billions to their mates. Of course he is going to be more cautious. But he is also deflecting the press, avoiding giving them the headlines they crave. So if this is the only evidence of Starmer ‘lying’ then I’m all for it, cos I want the Tories out. Is Starmer perfect? Absolutely not. Do I agree with everything he’s done? Absolutely not. Is he a better option than 5 more years of the Tories? Absolutely.

The big problem on the horizon is that Labour will probably win, but the country is ****** and the government has no money. It is going to take a long time to get everything better. Far more than 5 years. Labour need to get in and stay in, so anything they do to start siphoning the money from the rich to pay for it all needs to be gradually. There’s no point going in like Robin Hood, cos then they won’t be re-elected and in 5 years time the Tory rule just starts again. I suspect this isn’t going to be good enough though and Starmer will continue to be attacked from both sides. ‘Why hasn’t he done this yet.”, “why hasn’t he done that yet?”.

If Starmer gets in and proves to be a Tory in disguise, then the party needs to get shut of him, just like the Tories keep getting shut of their PMs. But it’s a risk that’s worth taking, because just look at the state of things under the Tories. And talk of ‘if you waste your vote you get 5 more years of Sunak’ are way wide of the mark, cos Sunak is on his way out. Braverman started her leadership campaign yesterday.

 

it will only get changed if a Tory or Labour government choose to change it and that is never going to happen, because as soon as we choose PR there will never be a majority government again, something that neither the Tories nor Labour would want. The idea that the Lib Dems will be able to enforce this upon Labour or the Tories in the event of a hung Parliament is just fanciful. How well did they do getting their policies through during the last coalition?

I suspect that, if Labour don’t get an overall majority the conversation would go something like this:

Lib Dems - “We’ll form a coalition with you and put you in power, but these are our demands, the first of which is changing to PR”
Labour - “We’ll happily form a coalition with you. We’ll make your leader Deputy PM, we’ll give you X amount of cabinet positions, and we’ll bring all your demands to the table…except the first one. So what’s it going to be? Do you want a seat at the table and all that goes with it, in return for throwing PR out of the window or shall we have another election in a few months time where we aggressively go after your seats?”
Lib Dems [sheepishly] - “yeah, alright”

 

There is a list on lies in the piece. You can justify but ignoring them is just wilful blindness.

you used a statement there that underpins everything that’s wrong with economic debate. You said the ‘government has no money’. You realise in a fiat economy that can never be the case. Any A level Economics student knows that but somehow we have allowed our political leaders to lie to us. All decisions are political not economic decisions. General taxation does not fund anything in any meaningful way. A nations economy is not in any way the same as a household one.

Sunak and the tories are gone. As you say a facile argument to believe any different. If Starmer gets a majority like Johnson he will see that as personal mandate.

The public need to attempt to vote cleverly to create a hung parliament to stop Starner pushing austerity and privatisation based on his mandate.

if Labour have sole power and do nothing the far right and Braverman will be the next but one govt. now is an opportunity to show we as a nation are adults and want truthfulness to matter.

 

I can’t see that myself but we will see. I agree Labour will continue to ignore its members and perpetuate FPTP despite the evidence that it keeps them out of power more than in it. I suspect LibDems won’t sacrifice hard won gains without significant concessions and are more likely to agree a supply agreement than a coalition.

 

I think you argue your case really well but I don't agree with some of your points from your posts. Firstly, Starmer is a despicable liar. He is. Look at his statements and then his interviews where he actually lies to cover up lies. On the PR thing it would be in the left's interest to have PR because of the demographic spread across the country and the way that urbanised voters' votes would then be more accurately reflected across the country. Social Democrats and socialists would benefit to a larger extent than right of centre parties if the last 30 odd years are anything to go by. As to Labour not being able to do enough when in power, that coupled with the fact that there is no vision, no apparent change to austerity and the fact that the Tories will regroup will possibly mean that a Labour Government trying to be 'prudent' will get hammered for not seeming to do anything and thus the Tories will be back in again in 5 years.

 

I'm a member of the Green Party, I have never voted for them, they didn't stand in my council ward and I voted tactically for Labour at the last 3 General Elections. If we had a fair voting system, I would be able to vote with my beliefs. Electoral reform has to come.

 

Completely agree

 

Totally wrong. A major constitutional change like that would require a specific referendum. It's naive to suggest otherwise.