Starmer

Do you not think the countries that arm them (us and the US) or that finds them the US have any influence. Of course we do.

 

You sure about that?

I’m certainly not

 

me either.

 

I get that you may not hold him in the highest regard, but what is your argument against his stance?

 

Blair Version 2.0

 

In fairness to Starmer this is a very difficult issue. There is little or no support for the actions of Likud with Labour Party members at the same time given the accusations that plagued Labour in 2019 (and the funding received from pro Israeli groups) its hard to find a middle ground to take.

The public in general also favours a ceasefire.

Looks like around 50 voting for a ceasefire including 12 frontbenchers . The best outlet here is to make a a non whipped free vote but Labour have now boxed themselves in.


https://x.com/siennamarla/status/1724775268559012025?s=46&t=j20zR706pmXrBtdI_7p-NQ

 

Interesting. So that's about a quarter of Labour MP's. But I think there are well over 100 front bench postholders? So I guess the degree of trouble for Starmer will depend upon their identity - i.e. whether any of the 'big hitters' are among the 12. I suspect not, but we'll see later.

 

Not in a meaningful way. The ones agitating for this, mainly the SCG, are Labour MPs in name only. They object to pretty much everything Starmer does, but don't want to give up the cushy MP's salary. The more Starmer is able to distance himself from them, the better he looks to the electorate.

Hopefully a few more of them manage to lose the Labour whip through their own actions in the same way that Corbyn and Abbott have, but most are wary enough not to let their principles get in the way of their salaries.

 

I think Clive Lewis is probably a good barometer. Not particularly anything other than soft left and has said he will vote for a ceasefire.

I think you are right about the big hitters though in essence collective responsibility lies only with the actual cabinet rather than the SC they are too near to the ministerial position to rock the boat. They will abstain.

As you know I’m not a fan of Starmer but this is a very tricky area to navigate.

 

Yeah expel all those pesky socialists from a socialist party. A grand plan.

 

It would have been like the UK government dropping bombs on Derry in an attempt to kill IRA suspects and then saying "We don't target civilians but it's not our fault that tower block was blown up, the IRA are hiding amongst the population and using it as a base."

How do you think that would have gone down?

The only reason they get away with it is because they're brown skinned and they're lives are seen as not as valuable than say someone from Ukraine.

 

Alternatively, all the ones who prefer performative gestures to forming a government can choose to expel themselves.

Besides, you've spent the last 3 years claiming it isn't a socialist party, so make your mind up.

 

Anything other than a permanent ceasefire is just keeping the Palestinians alive long enough so many of them can be killed once the 'temporary pause' has ended.

 

Rachel Reeves reply to my email to her

Thank you for contacting me about the current crisis in Gaza.

The situation in Gaza is now a humanitarian emergency. I support calls for humanitarian pauses and the lifting of siege conditions immediately.

We cannot and will not close our eyes to Palestinian suffering. There is not enough food or clean water and hospitals are going without medicine and electricity, with serious consequences.

In my view, efforts must respond to the two immediate tragedies: 7 October, the biggest slaughter of Jews since the Holocaust, and the humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza which also plays out on a previously unimaginable scale, thousands of innocent Palestinians dead, displaced, and desperate for safety.

I utterly condemn Hamas’s attack on Israel. Unlike the Hamas terrorists, I know all human life is equal and innocent lives must be protected.
Israel must submit to the rules of international law. Its right to self-defence is fundamental but not a blank cheque. Every step must be taken to protect civilians from bombardment. Palestinians should not be forced to flee their homes en masse, but where they have no choice but to leave, we need clear guarantees they will be able to return quickly.

The aid allowed through the Rafah crossing, although welcome, is completely insufficient. The supply of basic utilities like water, medicines, electricity and fuel to citizens in Gaza cannot be blocked. Gaza is not a small town facing a few shortages. It is a place where, even before this devastation, life was a struggle. I want to see rapid, safe, unhindered and regular aid and Israel turn back on the supplies it controls.

I support the Opposition’s call for the UK Government to increase its funding to Gaza by an extra £10 million and appoint a UK special coordinator for international aid to Gaza. The UK must stand ready to ensure aid reaches the right places, to deploy British experts and medical support teams, and to work with international partners to give UN agencies the long-term resources they need.

I know the Shadow Middle East Minister has met with both Arab and Israeli ambassadors and has reiterated that this long-standing conflict can only be resolved by dialogue and discussion. The Shadow Foreign Affairs team has also been in contact with the UK Government, the United Nations and non-governmental organisations to discuss how to protect and help civilians.

I understand calls for a ceasefire. This situation is deeply distressing. However, I do not believe this is the correct approach at this stage. I am concerned a ceasefire would freeze the conflict in its current stage, with hostages still captured by Hamas and with Hamas retaining the infrastructure and capability to carry out the sort of attack we saw on 7 October.

I believe our current call for clear and specific humanitarian pauses, which should start immediately, is the only credible approach with any chance of achieving what we all want to see in Gaza, the urgent alleviation of Palestinian suffering, aid distributed quickly and space to get hostages out.

We must move to a cessation of fighting as quickly as possible as the reality of hostage rescues and Hamas’s capability to carry out attacks change. In my view, neither long-term Israeli security nor long-term Palestinian justice can be delivered by bombs and bullets, and open-ended military action without a clear and desired political outcome is ultimately futile.

I know the facts on the ground change by the minute, but the consequences will last for decades. The trauma may never fade. We must fight for a political agreement, a two-state solution, no matter how unlikely it seems today, as the only way to resolve this conflict once and for all, because so often the trauma of the present leads directly to the tragedy of the future.

Thank you once again for contacting me. I will continue to follow developments on these incredibly important matters extremely closely.

Yours sincerely,

Rachel Reeves

 

If we're going with this analogy, then the equivalent to what's up for debate today would be arguing about whether the opposition party in Israel decided to use the word 'ceasefire' or 'humanitarian pause' when asking the UK government to stop dropping bombs on Derry, and whether some of their MPs resign over them picking the option from the two that they don't like.

 

Sounds like a least one SC member will vote for the ceasefire.

Be interesting if it were Raynor

https://x.com/shehabkhan/status/1724782844004979131?s=46&t=j20zR706pmXrBtdI_7p-NQ

 

It shouldn't be imo' it should be to the people that voted for you and put you in office.

 

You're right. Who needs morality?

 

They wouldn’t have needed a vote the Government would have done whatever Friends of Israel told them to do

 

Naz Shah with am impressive speech.