Posted without Comment.

I think that the Tories out is the ideal answer. Anything else is a bonus.

But what is the short term outcome that you seek? Are you hoping people won't vote for Labour/Starmer?

 

The question was: what short term outcome do you seek out of this? Are you urging people not to vote Labour/Starmer?

 

Tbf from my point of view so is what you just put, so that’s us even , all this right wing press stuff is total crap, people have minds of their own despite what you seem to believe ( indoctrinated by the left wing press were you if you follow your theory through?) , plus Corbyn was abandoned by traditional Labour voters , cos he was a liability!

 

Christ.

If that's what you believe then good luck to you.

Happy New Year mate - You Reds.

 

Just posting it is a comment

 

I live in Harrogate so will be voting LibDem, the only party that can possibly come close to ousting Cons.

I can't bear another term of this set of Tory w@nk3rs.

 

Doctors aren’t paid less than staff at Aldi, they just work too many hours. When they work out their average salary (the calculation where they say they earn less than people who work at Aldi) they don’t take into account that people who work at Aldi won’t be asleep at any point, whereas the junior doctors’ hours includes their on call time which could all concievably, although unlikely these days, be spent sleeping.

Also, I don’t think anyone at Aldi wouldn’t gladly drop down to the same hourly salary as junior doctors, providing they are then paid as much as the doctors are a couple of years later. And then by year 5 they’ll be pulling up to the staff car park at Aldi in much nicer cars!

The real issue is junior doctors’ hours. They were ridiculous back in my day, when they were able to sleep for much of their on call hours. I imagine there’s less chance of that nowadays, certainly for the second SHO on A&E overnight. The only way to reduce junior doctors hours is to have more junior doctors. That’s where the investment needs to be, reducing their hours to safer levels, at which point they’ll realise their salary isn’t too bad, compared to, say, junior nurses, who don’t have such a steep increase in salary as the years go by.

I cannot see why nobody in any sort of position of authority has ever thought that junior doctors’ hours being so long is potentially dangerous. Actually, let me rephrase that. I cannot see why nobody in any sort of position of authority has chosen to do something about the blindingly obvious unsafe amount of hours junior doctors are expected to work. It’s one of the most important jobs there is, and yet managers/government ministers/etc are quite comfortable with the idea that there are doctors making critical decisions who could have been awake for 48 hours. I know that they will always have a more senior doctor at hand if things go mental, but I can remember more than one occasion when I have gone to find the A&E Consultant to ask that he comes to help clear away some of the queue, as the SHOs were struggling, only to be informed by his Secretary that he is down on Harley Street doing private consultations. You know, whilst he was being paid rather handsomely for being the senior doctor on call at a busy London A&E department. I don’t know at which point in an Aldi worker’s career they get to do that!

 

We are friends with a couple of the medics that the missis works with (junior doctor is very much a banned phrase these days). We went to a party and they were whingeing about their December wages. Ones monthly take home was 1500 the other 1700 which I’m sure is on par with supermarket wages. Crazy given the responsibility and as you say the hours they work.

There is also the daft situation where band 6 nursing staff have to wait for medics who are paid much less than them to sign stuff off. I have no idea why any of them bother. I know you can make the argument about long term earnings &pensions etc but I’d be on my bike to Oz straightaway if I were them.

They definitely need more but make no real effort to retain staff do more leave than join and it just gets worse and worse.

 

The damage was done during the period that the 35% relative wage drop was incurred. To expect they will recover that in one pay round is simply not happening. Their case for a substantial rise is just. But there appears to be an air of resignation among the wider public, who already don't have high expectations of their health service. Sunak will bat this one out with the Mail and the Express aiding him by leading the charge against 'greedy doctors who put the public at risk' (they don't).

 

When/if Streeting gets his hands on the NHS reigns it will be be the final nail in the NHS coffin he’ll shove it so far into the private sector it won’t be recoverable

 

Has he said that?

 

Conference Speech, 11 October 2023:

Labour will never abandon the founding principles of the NHS as a publicly funded public service, free at the point of use.

I make the case for reform not in opposition to those principles but in defence of them.

I’m blunt about the fact that the NHS is no longer the envy of the world, not to undermine it, but to reassure people that we’ve noticed.

I argue that our NHS must modernise or die, not as a threat but a choice.

The crisis really is that existential.

 

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23932636.wes-streeting-wants-nhs-wide-open-private-sector/
https://members.parliament.uk/member/4504/registeredinterests
John Armitage , former Tory donor , private health care hedge funder giving Streeting £15000 … why ?

 

I don't seek any short term outcome as I'm not stupid enough to think my view will change anything. I just hope he's more ambitious in office than at present. How people vote is up to Starmer and themselves.

 

Can't see a problem with that.

 

Does that infer you're indifferent as to whether Sunak or Starmer wins?

 

No, I'd rather Starmer win, but I'm realistic enough to know not to expect any reasonable change beyond basic competence. Which will be a good thing, but a sign of how low the bar is these days.

 

Nothing wrong with wanting the Tories out. If I was a Tory myself (god forbid) I'd be looking for something else to vote for if I thought logically about their handling of the country. The trouble with all you pro-Starmer 'mob' is that you're willing to vote down a blind alley for something which, to be frank, does not appear to offer anything substantive as an alternative to Tory austerity. Therefore, at the moment (and yes, things may change) it does look like a vote for Labour will change nothing and will be given in just blind hope and desperation. For me, at the moment, there's nothing to base a Labour vote on. I think that's the crux of where a lot of the critique of Starmer comes from. Add to that the comments of people like Cruddas and it makes one wonder whether Starmer has a genuine Labour compass to him in the first place. Criticism of Starmer and Labour is therefore perfectly justified even if one hates the Tories. I for one will be thinking very carefully about my vote and what I am trying to replace the Tories with. I've already written to senior Labour figures to express my point of view (in a desperate attempt to do something). I would like Starmer to provide some genuine hope for people. At the moment, with Labour, there really is none other than 'well at least they're not the Tories'. That's not good enough and, little insignificant voting cog that I am, as I said, Ill be thinking very carefully about my vote.
I've said it before and Ill repeat it - a visionless Labour Government will be inviting the Tories back into power in 5 years time. That's a big worry.

 

To be honest the policies mean little to me. A vote for labour is a vote to get corrupt racists out of power. It's as simple as that. And with that in mind then there is a world of difference between the two parties.

 

What about this five years?

There's a subtler game being played rather well here by Starmer. That is not to give the Tory media any more ammunition than necessary, nor to give any room for them to say Labour can't be trusted with the finances. (A bit of a joke after the mess this lot have made.) I expect him to exceed your expectations. Time will tell!