Posted without Comment.

Most people who post on here detest the Tories. Quite rightly in my opinion. Their nastiness and corruption is shocking. To that extent we are, none of us, millions of miles apart. However, I think some on here, as you, cut Starmer far too much slack, trust him unreasonably and are far too optimistic. I suspect we'll not agree there.
However, on another issue best wishes to yourself and to all decent minded folk for the new year and if you personally have any decent tips slap 'em on the site!

 

And a happy new year to you and yours, Mr KCP! Let's hope it's not a year where Trump and Sunak are both returned to power! My tips would be more towards the embarrassing end of the scale at the moment, but should they return to form I will post them!

 

This thread is marvellous. We have a poster who has repeatedly asked for evidence of what Labour’s policies are, on the same thread as insisting Wes Streeting wants to privatise the nhs when there’s no compelling evidence whatsoever that he does…

That is in fact the opposite of what he’s said, which is that throwing money at it blindly won’t work and it needs change and reform. I don’t think I can argue against that.

We also have, apparently, anti-Starmer mobs and pro-Starmer mobs. I’m not sure either is the case.

I’m in no mob supporting Keir. I’m not a big fan at all to be honest. But any suggestion that he isn’t the best choice of the only two we have (and bleating about electoral reform, or that fptp is unfair, is all well and good - but it hasn’t happened so we can only piss with the dick we’ve got for the upcoming election) is in my eyes ridiculous.

There are plenty of people who have pointed out that all Starmer had to do was sit back and let the tories lose in order to win. He’s doing exactly that to my eye.

He has no headline grabbing policies, he’s said little or nothing to upset the apple cart, he’s pretty vanilla and steady - not necessarily hugely appealing to the traditional left but also not in the crosshairs to be attacked by frontline media like Corbyn and even Miliband were; he’s an acceptable choice for middle Englanders to gravitate towards.

It was in this demographic Blair won two landslides and a third election after them - appealing to them (on this occasion by being bland but intelligent and likely to be competent) isn’t that daft an idea.

We don’t know what he’ll be like in power. But he will be a marked improvement on the last five; they have progressively worsened (I suppose that’s harsh to suggest sunak is worse than Truss and Johnson but you get what I mean), gone further and further to the right - to the point where I saw bringing back David Cameron to frontline politics to be a potential positive. And that is saying a huge amount.

We have to get the tories out. We apparently all want and aspire more than just that on this thread, but that HAS to be the start.

 

I accept that we have a right to talk cr@p on the BBS (I may have even done so myself in the past) but this thread really takes the biscuit. The carping criticism of politics in general and the two main parties in particular shows a frightening lack of awareness and responsibility. The state of politics in this Country and the quality of our 'leaders' is a direct result of English voters and their repeated decisions at the ballot box or in their party elections. There has to be some acceptance of that.

It has now given rise to a situation where the choice at the coming election will be between a Right wing, regressive, intolerant, backward looking Party or...the Tories. A contest that will be determined using a fraudulent electoral system that the English voted for; in a wider political environment that sees the UK on the fringes of world events/influence that (yes you've guessed it) the English voted for. And yet, there's a conversation on here that seems to disclaim responsibility for causing any of this. Bonkers.

Still, let's hope we get that Centre Back in the window.

 

This.
Said for ages Middle England decide government and have done for a long time now.
The priority for him has to be to win the next election.

 

Whether we like it or not, this country is conservative with a small 'c' (and often a large one). The system of governance is rigged in favour of the rich and powerful, and a deal of artfulness is required for anyone not from the Conservative Party to take charge.

 

When Wes Streeting says on LBC that he wants to solve bosoms issues within the NHS by using the private sector what do you think he means other than that? Like “fiscal responsibility” it’s not a policy that directly announces austerity. It just locks you into it. Fiscal responsibility means for example that you are committed to the 2 child benefit austerity policy with the JRF state is one of the biggest drivers of child poverty

Your point about ‘middle England’ is a little out of date if you look at analysis of recent elections. The majority of political analysts see the collapse in Scotland as a determining factor in 2015 and the collapse of the so called red wall as being pivotal to 2019. 2017 saw Corbyn fail to convince in Scotland which was a major factor in his loss in 2017. Labour have clearly made the calculation to pitch their offering towards the gammon vote in the north hence the support for hard Brexit and subtle dog whistle racism. I think they see this as a softer target than Scotland though the voter fatigue and scandals around the SNP have made them rethink and chase the unionist Tory vote given they cannot make a centre left offering for fear of upsetting the gammons.

I think this double approach with the collapse of the Tories may well work well enough for them to be the biggest party. I think a lot of Reform poll votes will go back to the Tories so a hung parliament is pretty likely which will be interesting given the pitch they’ve made.

 

When did 'mob' become part of woke taboo? By God it's hard keeping up at my age!

 

I would imagine he might have a few questions to answer about his relationship with Mandelson in the very near future. There’s plenty of ammo there.

 

What are you insinuating, Mr Django Man?

 

Erm...imo a hung parliament is, by some distance, the best outcome. Any constraint on a Right Wing Government has to be a good thing. So the SNP and Lib Dems (and possibly Greens) could have a big part to play in stopping the worst aspects of a Labour Administration.

 

Well there’s two ways of looking at it.

Mandelson was either very comfortable in the company of a peadophile or he was involved himself.

Either way he shouldn’t be advising Starmer & shouldn’t be appearing & speaking at Labour events.

That’s without mentioning that he was twice sacked for his behaviour whilst an MP.

 

I can’t see it being hung to be honest. The tories always poll a bit better than opinion polls and ratings suggest - or at least tend to - but I can’t see them taking enough to stop Labour getting a majority. They are just so, so far behind and there’s no realistic prospect of a recovery I don’t think, much as plenty of highly invested and influential folk will try.

I reckon Labour will take at least 350 seats tbh. I suspect a little more with the snp implosion.

I also think you underestimate the middle England influence. Losing Scotland and the red wall lost the elections in 15 and 19 I concur - but taking some of those seats, along with the recovery of those two mentioned, cements a potential landslide. There is a clear tactic to be just intolerant and bigoted enough to appeal the old red wall, brexit loving, immigration hating types back to Labour - but there’s plenty of gammon pink amongst the ten-bob millionaires in society too. I still think they are a key demographic of any winning party - take the middle and take the lot.

But you are right that regains in Scotland - which will happen as the SNP aren’t liked and there isn’t a lot of blue support - I suspect the Tory wall along the border will be decimated, I’m not sure they’ll keep the Aberdeen area seats either. Even if the tories retain all seven they have up there, I can’t see the SNP retaining even half of their 40 odd, probably less than half - and the majority of those I see turning red. In fact I envisage Labour going from two Scottish MPs to being the biggest party in Scotland, in the Westminster parliament anyway.

Like I say, I’d suggest at least a 50 majority - and I’d even be unsurprised if Labour secured 400 seats and a 150 majority.

 

https://x.com/peteneville65/status/1609907691912298497?s=46&t=j20zR706pmXrBtdI_7p-N

a yera old but these are the things Labour need to address not privatisation by stealth.

 

I think tories will vote Labour in Scotland and they will collapse. I think a lot depends on reform. Are 11% gonna stick with them. Will they work with the Tories again? Given boundaries a switch of 7% or 8% puts you in hung parliament territory. Interesting times though.

 

What is abundantly clear in this forum is that people have no idea just how far right Sunak really is.

 

Well I would absolutely, 100% be looking to use the private sector whilst we get staff recruitment sorted out. We have such record backlogs of people needing investigations and surgery now it would be stupid not to.

An example. Say, 10,000 people are currently requiring MRI scans, and the waiting time is 6 months+. The NHS only has a certain amount of scanners and staff to man them/report on the results. Unlike the private sector, the NHS also has emergencies coming in through A&E who need urgent scans, causing patients due for routine scans to get bounced on the day and have to wait again.

In the private sector you can see a doctor and get a scan the same day, easily. Because there are loads of MRI machines, fully staffed, that are sitting empty, ready to scan said people who are referred for scans that day. It’s not possible for the NHS to suddenly acquire another 50 scanners and staff to manage them overnight. But it is possible for a deal to be made with a private scanner to scan x amount of NHS patients this week. Yes, money will be going from the NHS to the private sector, but who do you think they buy the scanners off in the first place? Money always goes from the NHS to private hands, in buying equipment and drugs. Yes, it would be more cost effective to purchase their own scanners and train their own staff and that process can be begun at the same time, but right now the backlogs are at an all-time high, thanks to Tory failings and the pandemic. And getting the patients scanned quicker would save in the long run as any medical issues can begin to be treated straight away, rather than the condition worsening over the months the patient is waiting for the scan and then needing more intense treatment, surgery and hospital stays.

Once the backlogs have been cleared the need for using the private scanners will no longer be there and, hopefully, the shortage of NHS scanners and staff to man them will have been addressed and plans will be in place to increase both.

That’s MRI scans. You can use this same method for clearing backlogs of people needing minor surgery, physio, CBT and so on. It doesn’t need to be a permanent relationship, and measures need to be taken to increase NHS resources to avoid the need for using the private sector in future, but as a short term solution I cannot see what the problem is. Waiting times are at a record high and people are needlessly dying because they are not able to obtain the intervention they need from the run down NHS.

I should add, that depending on what employee benefits someone has in place with their employer, there is a lot of help available to people outside the NHS that most employers who provide insurance products for their employees don’t even know are there. For example, if an employer provides an Income Protection scheme and an employee is having mental health issues, the insurer of the Income Protection scheme would almost certainly arrange for the intervention (usually CBT) to start immediately, at the insurer’s cost. I’ve arranged this for people dozens of times and it has helped the person remain at work or return to work much quicker, and they receive their therapy immediately, when there may be a 2 year wait in their area on the NHS. After a two year absence from work with mental health issues, the chances of a successfully return to work are dramatically reduced and the employee will find it much more difficult to make a full recovery. This help is there and it is free and it can start immediately, and most employers don’t even know it’s there.

There are lots of ways the private sector can help reduce the burden of the NHS and none of it requires selling off parts of the NHS to private companies. It isn’t privatisation, it’s comm9n sense. The NHS would be stupid not to use the private sector as a short term solution, whilst building itself back up to the levels it needs to be at to deal with the ageing population that we currently have.

 

Think we will have to agree to disagree. The Private Sector exists to make money and that has no place in the NHS. Most of the private sector staff are either employed by or were trained by the NHS.

The low hanging fruit easier works will be siphoned off. Leave all the difficult cases. Create your own self fulfilling prophecy of a failing service. It’s how privatisation by stealth happens. It’s how Mone gets the opportunity to steal millions. It’s how you claim record investment by giving including the Dido Harding money.

Streeting is bought and paid for by private medicine. 200k this year. Not ‘donated’ for nothing. His intention is to put private and public health in competition but supplement it which is what caused the issues in the first place.

Yeah our work offers a private scheme. I opted out it was difficult but I think you have to stand on your principles.

 

Everything the NHS uses comes from the private sector. Money leaves the NHS and goes to companies that provide equipment, drugs and people. At the moment the NHS has neither enough equipment nor enough people (and is getting ripped off by just about every company that provides a service to it - investing in government run companies to provide drugs and equipment is surely a no brainer?). But there’s equipment and there are people with spare capacity sitting there doing nothing. We can get patients their scans, tests and procedures done by buying some of this capacity. It would be managed by the NHS. If the provider asks too much money the NHS doesn’t use it and they are in no worse position. But if a suitable deal can be brokered, the waiting lists can be reduced far quicker.

I can’t imagine there would be many who would turn down the chance to get seen to quicker. All reports, etc get sent back to the NHS Specialist and treatment can be planned/started. Yes, money will be going to a private company, but there’s the choice, do they want to get the waiting lists under control quickly or not?

At the same time they come up with solutions to build the NHS back up to where it should be. This, however, is not going to be easy without firstly getting social care back up to where it should be. This, however, isn’t going to be easy, because people in the UK don’t want to work in that industry and we voted to stop the people coming into the country who do! The way things are going, in 5 years time every hospital bed will have an 80+ year old lying in it.

Whichever way you look at it, building the NHS back up to where it needs to be, in order to provide a service that was thought up in 1948 for the ageing UK population of…checks calendar…2024, is a massive, long term project. Every single NHS hospital and service is underfunded and understaffed. Staffing alone is going to take donkeys years, cos it takes years to train doctors and nurses (and dentists, and radiographers, and paramedics, and pharmacists, and…you get the point!), even if we suddenly magicked the money to buy all the equipment and update the infrastructure. The problem here is that in 5 years, maybe 10, hopefully more, the Tories could get back in and it all stops anyway.

 

Interesting last three posts. Realism/Pragmatism v Ideology. For me, Pragmatism gets people seen and reduces waiting lists while Ideology is stood around waving the red flag - usually in opposition.