Mr Bates vs The Post Office

I've just read that Davey was the only Minister that had a meeting recorded in the diary with Bates - before or after. He still believed the Post Office, but he did at least meet him to discuss it.

 

Hopefully that doesn't make it all go away.
Again.

 

I think it's more a sign that she wants to avoid attention and look like she's got a conscience. A decision by the Forfeiture Committee to remove the honour would have been more damning. Whatever, the correct outcome was arrived at.
Alan Bates should be honoured but I think he would decline again, he seems like the sort of bloke that isn't out for his own aggrandisement but rather is working for the common good.

 

To be fair the original article stated he'd refused to meet, but he actually did a few weeks later...obviously believed the PO though.

 

What is still really annoying me about all this is that the govt is now going out of its way to get things moving on sorting this out, but after nearly 25 years, it has taken a bloody dramatisation of it on the telly to make them take any notice and only now that the public is outraged are they starting to do anything.

Disgusting from start to finish.

 

Funny that the only Post Office Minister being singled out for attention happens to be the Liberal, non-Tory Ed Davey.

 

Sunak will be claiming one of his 5 pledges was "to get the Post Office Scandal sorted".

 

Just thinking, perhaps we need some more dramas on the telly about things we need action on.

How's about a drama about the state of our rivers and seas. We live in a supposedly first world country and are literally swimming in ****. Can we get some outrage built up about that.

 

Or how about the state if the roads that could be a better one.

 

Not just an OBE. He's worth something higher, like a peerage where he can continue his investigative ability in a wider arena.

 

I'm certainly not defending the Tories but to be fair no Tory was the PO minister whilst the prosecutions were going on.

Jo Swinson had the job after Ed Davey, who had it before 2010 I'm not sure.
From the Guardian...
Jo Swinson
Swinson was postal minister from 2012 to 2015, replacing Norman Lamb, who lasted a little more than six months in the role.
This was a period when an external review of the Horizon IT system was carried out by the forensic accountants Second Sight, brought in by the Post Office as pressure mounted from a small group of MPs and the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance (JFSA) set up by victims to campaign for their innocence.
Second Sight’s interim report found evidence of flaws and bugs in Horizon. On two occasions, “defects” in the system had resulted in a shortfall of about £9,000 at 76 branches.
However, the Post Office maintained that there was “absolutely no evidence of any systemic issues with the computer system”. Swinson backed up this position in a statement to the House of Commons.
Second Sight’s final report described the Horizon system as “not fit for purpose” in some cases and said it experienced 12,000 communication failures a year. Its authors warned of “potential miscarriages of justice and misconduct by prosecutors acting on behalf of the Post Office”.
Swinson, who is no longer an MP, subsequently said that she had been misled by the Post Office regarding Horizon.

Edit...one of the Ministers Bates contacted before 2010 was Stephen Timms.

From The Times...

Bates, in his first of at least five letters to Davey, on May 20, 2010, revealed the JFSA group had now grown to “close to 100” members whose hounding by the Post Office, he said, stemmed “from the flaws of the Horizon system the Post Office introduced and which they refuse to admit has ever suffered from a single problem”.
Urging Davey to intervene, he added: “The evidence is there to be found by anyone in a position of being able to unlock doors instead of placing barriers in the way of those pursuing the information. An independent external investigation instigated at ministerial level would be the most appropriate, and would without any doubt easily find evidence of the error-ridden system.”
Davey, however, could not have been more dismissive. On May 31, 2010, he told Bates: “The integrity of the Post Office Horizon system is an operational and contractual matter for POL [Post Office Ltd] and not government [and] whilst I do appreciate your concerns … I do not believe a meeting would serve any useful purpose.” Davey added that the decision to treat the Post Office as an “arm’s length” body meant it had the “commercial freedom to run its business operations without interference”. A spokesman for Davey says now that he was advised by officials that the matter was for the Post Office.
Taken aback, Bates wrote again to Davey on July 8, 2010, noting that his response to the “very serious issues I had raised was not only disappointing but I actually found your comments offensive”. While there were “new politicians in post”, Bates said that Davey’s letter was “little different to the one” sent by Stephen Timms, the former Labour minister with responsibility for postal affairs, “seven years ago”.

 

He's not a legislator though, we need more properly experienced people like say Ian Botham or Michelle Mone....

 

The real Mr Bates v the Post office on tv last night reduced me to tears.

The drama just made me more angry. Having followed the case for years.

But as to your point of acceptance of a gong.

Everyone to their own. Whether he would accept an honour. My/our case is well below his. long story but I fought against the union (of which I was a steward) and management of the company I worked for,
I was the only one that wouldnt recommend a deal after we'd been brought back in house after 10 yrs of outsourcing to the disdain of both parties. It was not in my view acceptable. Re our pension reinstatement not being honoured. I fought later for yrs with the backing of some members via the ombudsman. Sadly failing through a technicality of time elapse.

My point is. No matter what the outcome would have been, I would never have (and didn't) accepted the bo11ox thrown my way. Including service awards and a retirement do. Some said I was cutting my nose off to spite my face. I called it principle. And conscience.
I also got suspended via a vindictive head of HR. (Who i fought relentlessly over his attitude towards pension rights and towards our terms and conditions. mainly because i Reported him to the CEO because of his attitude and incompetence) By being accused of misappropriate behaviour during an online meeting.
My crime was, I used the terms
Bu11shit. Pathetic and rip the data to shreds/bits (we had the evidence) . Language that was quite common in the 28 yrs as a shop steward, in meetings i was involved in with union and management, from both sides I may add. Which is what he accused me of. Yet, not once was I pulled up during that meeting by either party. As would be the norm if someone was thought to have stepped over the line.

I had several issues with the main convenor of my union. And we fell out on many occasions. This being one, So I thought fekk it. I represent my colleagues not him. And take whatever comes my way. Some of my points eventually got through to the other stewards, and for that, it was worth the flack i got at the time. And they are better organised now for it.

I wish to god. Someone would take on my former employers over their disastrous policies that have led to widespread failures of compliance. Ignoring the advice put forward by myself and others. It was called risk management and failed miserably due to imo poor management and profits. And that's Putting it mildly.

Another poster on here can back up every word I've said. But I'll not put him in an awkward position, as he still works for the same employer. He gave me the biggest compliment at my retirement get together (not organised by the company I add) . It meant a lot because it's how I am and who I am.

 

Your story sounds familiar, I worked for Jaguar Landrover in IT (plant floor systems) and my job was outsourced (I spent my last year there training 3 Indian lads to do my job). I've often wondered whether they have considered bringing it back in house. There were half a dozen of us who ran Castle Bromwich production facilities with no loss of production for the previous 10 years and upgraded many systems adding new functionality - I'd say that represents value for money. I heard there were a few serious production loss incidents not long after my early retirement in 2013, unfortunately I've lost contact with the people there, all my mates left at the same time as me so I don't know how it's going these days.

 

Should make her pay back her bonuses from performance related perks she got, nearly £3M

 

It would be great to see her filing for bankruptcy.

 

By the sounds of it mate. From those I'm still in contact with. (I retired early. had enough of the pure inefficiency of the company and playing to stupid rules that made it worse) As a utility company my loyalty was with the customer who in fact paid my wages as they had no other choice to shop elsewhere. It's still as bad as when I left and worse. I'm told. Privatisation was the worst thing that happened imho.
As you were outsourced. pensions weren't covered under TUPE. In my day they had to be comparable. (My arse like. And They wouldn't put us back in the old scheme when we came back in house as we were treat as new employees. Yet allowed us continuous service from the day we started.) CTunS.

I kid you not. After working out all the schemes I've been in. We were taken over by 3 companies in the 10 yrs we were outsourced. My shortfall if we had not been outsourced was £180k. Some of my colleagues who started from school to the tune of around £300k. I joined 16yrs after I'd been at pit.
The reason we were outsourced was not based on sound reasonable costs but 100% political. It was to why we were brought back in house. Because it didnt pan out. But it still didnt work as the old regime of management were replaced in effect by accountants. Profit b4 proper management of the assets.

 

I bet she used to say "the buck stops here" in meetings.

 

Sounds like you were treated really badly mate. Personally, I was lucky, the original choice I was given was TUPE to TATA Consultancy Services (the outsource company) or redeployment within JLR. TUPE wasn't remotely an option, I had 20 years in the Jaguar Pension plan (final salary pension) and would have lost thousands like you did so I was looking to redeploy. There was a possibility of becoming a "super user" in the production scheduling department, using the system that I had written the vast majority of. I would have kept my pension and salary but I suspect I wouldn't have enjoyed it. Luckily for me and several colleagues, they subsequently offered a third alternative to those over 55 of early retirement, I was 57 at the time so I snatched their hand off.

Privatisation has been a disaster pretty well everywhere; railways and water being prime examples. Outsourcing is clearly showing similar results as your case illustrates.