O/T Tonight's vote

We deserve it cos the majority of the population went mental 2 years ago and voted to leave the EU.

 

J
Got to be one of the biggest disasters in politics when he shafted his brother

 

Not quite, the majority of the voting population who got off their arses and actually voted went mental.

I do despair with the general 'nasty' way that this has polarized the population I find myself at odds with most of my contemporaries (I'm 60) so we don't really discuss it. One of my best friends refuses carte blanche to even mention the B word.

Cards on the table, I'm a remainer and I still feel that to leave is a mistake however, if the referendum result is to be honoured then the way it has been dealt with over the last couple of years has been scandalous. It has been the Conservative party in open warfare with itself with an internal power struggle played out for all the world to see. Only now when we are fewer than three months away from a self imposed D day does the Prime Minister decide to take on board cross party opinions. My view is that this should have been the starting point before invoking Article 50.

I've had enough of it all.

 

Just watching the EU parliament on bbc parliament.

100s of MEPs respectfully discussing Brexit no heckling at all... aside from a token number of ukippers who have turned up.

Then Farage stands up and abuses everyone in the room in daily hatred/ right wing style. The contrast is stark and obvious. Detail and courtesy... vs jingoism and lies passed off as truth.

It’s all a colossal mess and the EU must be sat there thinking, what a basketcase the UK is. They asked constantly what the uk wanted, time was wasted on a GE, the first Brexit secretary ran time out only believing brinksmanship would win his deal version, and after this deal was trashed (which we all knew when she announced it just a few months ago), the EU are still openly asking what we want. Of course the right wing, and some in Lexit ranks, will paint this as the EU being the villain.

I’ve got the point where I think they should either pull article 50... or... my rare and fleeting very bloodyminded view, leave with no deal and let the people who’ve blamed the EU for everything, see first hand that they are targeting their anger in the wrong direction. Pain and struggling intensely may well be the only thing that cuts through well tested sound bites from the super elites that now speak for the leavers.

 

May's deal is based around limiting the freedom if movement - you are correct. But Wayne from Kendray who voted out doesn't understand this. He wants to send them back. He doesn't realise what freedom of movement is. He'll then be moaning when he goes to Benidorm and the exchange rate is shocking and he has to spend money on a visa.

And yes it's true that not all the Leavers are racist, I completely agree with you - but I'd wager that around 70% are (disclaimer - number plucked purely from thin air).

Football fans are a fair yardstick in all this. Don't mind calling Sterling a black c-bomb. Can't wait to chant "Town full of pakis" against Bradford. Banana skins thrown at Aubameyang. Calling Chien a Chink and telling him to get out of the club. It's scary if anything.

It's so easy for a racist to hide behind Brexit.

 

As I say, it’s a fleeting whim of bloodymindedness. That or deport them all to Africa and see how they get on

 

The job of an MP is not to deliver what their constituents want (or what the country voted for), but to deliver what is in the best interests of their constituents and the country. The two things may be mutually exclusive.

 

This. It's like being a parent - your duty is to do what's best for your child. Part of that is giving them what they expressly want, but only insofar as it doesn't impact what's best for them in the long term. If you ask your kid what they want for every meal they'll probably say McDonald's or sweets but you know that's not in their best interests so you don't give it to them.

 

The whole thing is farcical in the extreme and a total impasse has been reached. The 'UK Government' (an oxymoron if ever there was one given their inability to govern), cannot determine what they want other than vague aspirations. The EU are not only confused by this but have repeatedly stated no renegotiations so we have reached stalemate.
I know quite a few on here will disagree, but to focus both sides something drastic must happen. IMHO that drastic action would be to Leave with no deal. It is correct that would be highly damaging in the short term. HOWEVER, the damage to the EU budget and remaining member states, particularly those who rely on our annual membership fee and/or exports (not all 27 I hasten to add) would be considerable (not to mention expose the myth that all EU states are united on all fronts).
It is not a case of "they need us more than we need them" which is clearly nonsense. I strongly believe the EU commission would come under immense pressure from financial institutions and manufacturers, both in the EU and the UK, to break the log jam as currently there is a kind of status quo - a kind of cold war - which results in inaction. When the sh*t really hits the fan, a lot of those currently on the side lines impacted by the political manoeuvring will become more involved and pressure will be brought to bear to sort things out once and for all. We know who and what institutions really pull the strings (for better or worse) and it isn't transient Governments.
A second referendum, even if it were to happen, would almost certainly change nothing since most people's views are entrenched and so either way the vote went there would probably be not a big enough margin to satisfy people.
As everyone knows on this site I am a strong advocate of leave, but to settle for a deal which effectively makes UK a Vassel state is inconceivable so if it truly came down to a choice between remain and the deal that is vastly inferior then it is a no'brainer.

 

Anyone of you read the Lisbon Treaty and its implications? Without leaving now, we shall be a division of the Fourth Reich.

 

"I’m pushing for a better Brexit deal as we leave the EU, one which works for people here in Barnsley, which guarantees jobs, rights, and living standards, and honours the result of the 2016 referendum."

Has anybody actually identified and clearly spelt out what this magical deal consists of?

It doesn't exist.

Without giving Northern Ireland away (in reality not only giving it away but also paying Ireland to take it off our hands) there is no deal that satisfies all the requirements of Brexit.

A complete and utter shambles.

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmm (that's me thinking btw)
This brexit thing, the whole thing has to be laid fairly and squarely on the Conservative party, especially the right wing of this party, with assists from mainstream media.

The whole idea of brexit came spawned from the Tory party to try to unite, or at least quieten the ERG faction. Mr Cameron instigated the referendum with the question of a binary nature. I suspect he thought that as the pundits were so sure that the vote would be to remain in the EU he was safe..............

He claimed he would invoke Article 50 himself.......................

Along comes Mrs May after the Tories elected a REMAINER to see brexit through

Mrs May then calls a snap election, in an attempt to boost an already comfortable majority in the Commons. We know what happened there don't we?.......

Throughout the process the media have been giving airtime in the case of TV and inches in their newspapers that did not represent the political field - eg how much airtime did/does Farage get compared with the actual representation in terms of seats/vote percentage? How many times has Mr Corbyn and his ilk been smeared.

Mrs May and her brexit secetaries (note the plural) negotiated on their own when it was blindingly obvious that brexit was not a one party issue...... we now know what happened to her 'deal'

Now as to the question of where do we go from here?

This is my take on the issue....

Mr Corbyn has rightly called a vote of no confidence in the Govt. there is not much anything the opposition could do at this moment in time. The vote of no confidence may well be defeated thanks largely to the 'deal' that Mrs May did with the DUP. If the motion is carried then a General Election is put in place and the Govt would ask the EU for a suspension (at least) of Article 50

If Labour wins the GE with a majority then the Labour party will form a Govt and they either do what the Tories attempted and negotiate with the EU themselves or they have a cross party alliance to do the negotiating. Either way, a deal if negotiated, we go through the same process.

If Labour does not win the GE then the country is at the same stage as we are now.

If the vote of no confidence is defeated then Mrs May can resign (she has said that is not going to happen) in which case the country may well leave the EU with no deal (unlikely as there is a Majority of MPs that do not want that).

If Mrs May carries on she will have to abandon her deal - it's apparent from the size of majority that defeated her that no 'tinkering' of the deal will a) be allowed by the EU or (b) be sufficiently varied to generate a majority for her.

The Govt. has the option of re-negotiating the deal completely from scratch (either with or without co-operation from other parties) to bring it back to the Commons for a vote.

There is always the option available to have another referendum. This time it surely cannot be a binary choice - as many people both on here and elsewhere have suggested possible options on the ballot paper

Mrs May's deal
No deal brexit
Remain in the EU
A N Other deal (when negotiated)

In conclusion I have to say that the treatment of the Conservative party has been somewhat lenient. The blame for this sorry mess has to be laid squarely at their feet. The Tories
a) Set the ball rolling calling the referendum
b) Negotiated on their own.
c) Dwindled the time away
d) Have sought to blame the opposition at every opportunity

The Conservatives seem to think they have the divine, god given right to rule the country.

People should open their eyes and ears and not believe everything the tories (and the media) say.

If the General Election is not forthcoming then I really cannot see how there can't be another referendum.

Brexit is here to stay..............

 

When we leave, will I still be allowed to sunbathe when I visit Nice in the summer?

 

Simply, the tories don’t want an election. So Corbyns naive goaded vote of no confidence is going to fail. Labour would lose a GE anyway, the support they have is niched and doesn’t have breadth.

The big worry for me is that we have a mix of incompetent idealogues with plummy voices, a clueless embattled government who are unmoving with an opposition that’s even more clueless. The only people that seem to have depth and intellect are confined to backbenches.

Very worrying times.

 

Only in speedo's . Those French no like the swimming shorts .

 

Can you explain how please?

 

I'd lay the blame squarely at David Cameron's door for giving in to his back benchers in the first place.

I'm a remainer and I'm certainly not responsible for the implications of leaving the EU.