No deal won’t be allowed to happen

I’m not sure that in 2019 there’s a chance we can have a vote on anything based on facts, there’s too much at stake and too many ways of spreading misinformation.
You just have to look at Boris’ (Cummings’) letter to the EU, full of total nonsense and designed to appeal to his followers rather than to achieve anything. Straight from the successful playbook of Trump, we’re doomed as a race whilst people refuse to engage in critical thinking.

 

If we end up with no deal I can't for the life of me see how that doesn't lead to a hard border. Otherwise, anyone getting as far as Ireland gets straight into the UK. Unless of course there is a border at the Northern Ireland ports/airports, which equates to a border in the Irish Sea - which the DUP vehemently oppose. That's before you think about smuggling, the possible return of violence and the increased likelihood of a reunification poll. It doesn't make any sense!

 

It appears Johnson’s, sorry Dominic Cummins plan is to shrug his shoulders and say “it’s not our fault” and then shout some loud words blaming foreigners, which of course will he lapped up by those who refuse to see what’s beyond the end of their nose

 

Yes, but it will all be the EU's fault now because Boris has written a letter .

His solution is if the EU drop the backstop he will think of something.....honest, he will.

 

If his alternative arrangements are so good, why does he care about the backstop? It’ll never be used if he’s already sorted it.

 

Because he hasn't a clue what the solution is but needs to blame somebody.

 

In over 3 years, not one single workable solution to avoid a back stop has been found. If it had been found, the backstop wouldn't even be in the agreement. It's only there because nobody, EU, the Irelands, the govt, advisors, anybody, has a solution that doesn't cause big problems for someone. The more extreme of the Brexit psychopaths are suggesting many things do exist... yet they've never specified what... in 3 years. Some could be forgiven for thinking they talketh faecal matter.

Santa and the tooth fairy are also in existence. We don't need proof. Just take their word on it. It'll be fine, truly.

And this is what makes this thing beyond ridiculous and beyond parody.

Its a tribal slanging match where many minds are made up and sensible debate just can't occur. Just take the comment earlier in this thread along the lines of... "nice people those Europeans" (relating to the Uk allegedly being done over in the trade of unicorn droppings). Well, last time I checked, British citizens were also European. Not only now, but however we may eventually leave the EU. Still European. And having travelled a fair bit of this supposed European Empire I can fairly say, yes, those Europeans are nice. Really nice. No irony, extremely nice. From Latvia to Luxembourg, Portugal to Poland, Germany to Greece. They are our friends. Irrespective of the media and the extremists. They are.

But going back to my point, how can you hope to offer an alternate opinion that may be picked up and considered when football tribalism has entered into the Brexit conundrum? Its the EU v UK. It's black and white (pretty much literally for some people!) The blue and yellows vs the red white and blues. A zero sum game with a nuclear option.

Its just ridiculous and to make matters worse, we now have an unelected idiot and proven cheat and liar (yes, he truly is) saying anything he likes to pander to populism and damage the country. And anyone who says otherwise is a traitor, the enemy, may as well be one of them Europeans, a remoaner.

I'm in Belgium for my Birthday over the weekend. My penultimate trip to the continent before 31st October. I can't wait to be in a much nicer environment again.

Je t'aime Europe.

 

But going back to my point, how can you hope to offer an alternate opinion that may be picked up and considered when football tribalism has entered into the Brexit conundrum? Its the EU v UK. It's black and white (pretty much literally for some people!) The blue and yellows vs the red white and blues. A zero sum game with a nuclear option.

Its just ridiculous and to make matters worse, we now have an unelected idiot and proven cheat and liar (yes, he truly is) saying anything he likes to pander to populism and damage the country. And anyone who says otherwise is a traitor, the enemy, may as well be one of them Europeans, a remoaner.

I'm in Belgium for my Birthday over the weekend. My penultimate trip to the continent before 31st October. I can't wait to be in a much nicer environment again.

Je t'aime Europe.[/QUOTE]
I recall some time ago now, someone on this forum saying they were in Belgium and how people referred to themselves as European not Belgium.
It struck me then how generally in the UK we do see ourselves as English/Scot/British etc not EU.
That mindset has always been there but is coming to the fore now, which suggests that culturally we never really bought into being European like others.

Enjoy your trip, lovely place Belgium

 

I’ve seen this kind of anecdote on plenty of occasions, it’s utter ******* nonsense promoted by idiots who need to point out the difference between us and them.

Go anywhere in Europe and you’ll find stronger local culture than anywhere in England. Genuine pride in a region, country and then the continent.

Town halls fly a regional flag, country flag and sometimes the EU one too. There is no ‘european’ identity, it’s a myth. Speak to people in Bavaria or Corfu and you find a very strong local identity (Yorkshire would be well to copy). Absolutely no one wants to be a homogeneous European.

In short - I’m calling Bo110x

 

I recall some time ago now, someone on this forum saying they were in Belgium and how people referred to themselves as European not Belgium.
It struck me then how generally in the UK we do see ourselves as English/Scot/British etc not EU.
That mindset has always been there but is coming to the fore now, which suggests that culturally we never really bought into being European like others.

Enjoy your trip, lovely place Belgium[/QUOTE]

Love Belgium. Been loads of times, revisiting Leuven and Ghent and Eurostar is fantastically handy (while its still running). Beer, frites and chocolate.... whats not to love? ;-)

May well have been me that said that... but I see it all over, have some lovely chats with locals on my travels and just allows you to see things with wider perspective instead of our forced media prism. You see a combination of localism and appreciation of being European too.

I'd like to hope younger generations have a broader view and aren't bound by small geographies to define themselves. The father in law is anti Europe, anti Scotland, anti migrant.... its not pleasant to see, but he's far from on his own and difference is often used as a measure for what sets us apart, never what similarities exist to allow us to pull together. I think that's what I find most sad.

 

i've just come back from three weeks touring europe in my motorhome,(france,belgium,italy,austria,germany and luxembourg), i've done this type of hol for many years,first time was in the mid 80's on my motorbike.

whilst in Vianden in Luxembourg we were joined by a five van group of people from Belgium(from the outskirts of Ghent) ..It didnt take long for them to ask about Brexit and what my opinions were ,(i'n a leave voter),what surprised me was that they agreed with me,they did not like the direction the eu is seemingly heading and all of them were against what is a increasing likelihood of a united states of europe,they were very anti immigration,particularly those from the former soviet countries and told me their country is not what it was..(where) once upon a time everybody nodded and said hello , now people have all on talking to one another,.These couples wernt old retired people,i'd say they ranged from mid 30's to late 40's,their jobs varied from a paramedic to a train driver but all of them were saying that it isnt just people in the uk who are opposed to the political union and they reckoned that their country would also be split down the middle if they were asked in a similar referendum to what we had.

We do between 3000 and 4000 miles every year in europe, most of which are away from so called tourist hot spots and very rarely do we do cities (,we'd sooner look at a glacier than a cathedral), maybe these more out of the way places hold more of these anti eu views than in cities but in my experience theres quite a lot of it about

 

This complete lie about no deal never being an option.. Since triggering article 50 which clearly had for all MP's the default position if a deal had not been struck.. That default was 'NO DEAL'..

Theresa May must have over 100 times in parliament mentioned no deal being better than a bad deal. Our biggest negotiating chip from day 1 was the real possibility that we will walk away in a no deal scenario. Those who have fought to remove this have no place in government, it's like showing your hand at poker before your opponent decides how to bet.

Start strong, not weak.

We have always being net contributors to the EU's failing project. Should those blocking leave succeed, it will really highlight how little control we do have in this country. Zero reform on the inside unless it is more towards a federal Europe (their vision)..

Should we end up having another referendum I will accept the result and believe me, never vote Labour again, on the basis that they stood on the manifesto of lies which was to honour the original result. It wasn't about how we left, what deal if any we got... Question was really straight forward....Leave or Remain..

Biggest lie in history = We can remain and reform!!! Only muttons believe this not us gammons.

 

So Boris has threatened no deal more vociferously and what difference has it made?

We had opt-outs on the integration stuff anyway. We had the best of all worlds but as a country our head is up our arse.

 

I tend to believe you can negotiate better with your friends, rather than treating them as enemies. The EU agreed negotiating conditions in weeks. They've stuck to them and published them openly. No close cards to chest. Just open. Yet our media and our populist politicians continue to treat them as if we're at war with them.

But then you see some of the moronic tribal diatribe from some who seek only to divide and entrench from their personal bias, and you suddenly see that for many, this is still a war.

I hope in future generations they can feel more European and have a broader outlook than many who prefer to be insular and protective.

 

A recent poll showed the under 30s are something like 70+% (can't recall if 73% or 77%) in favour of the EU. Under 20s are even more in favour. No matter what happens, its just a matter of time before we rejoin (demographics), the question is how much will be wasted and how much will we lose when we do.

 

I went off the beaten track in Belgium last year on route to the Spa Grand Prix. Got drinking with some locals. They didnt like us leaving but I was struck by the reason when I drilled down on it. We were perceived as the only country that would stand up to Germany running the show with the French as their lap dog. These were predominantly students aged up to about thirty and were in despair at the future of the EU

 

I'm sure should we leave, the lexiteers and brexiteers will try to overstate the benefits (after the event) of exit and decry from afar, mostly by lieing, what the EU is doing and how we're so lucky to be out. Of course, many of these people won't have seen the development in EU states, the cutting edge technology they are using, the vastly superior transport (in speed, reliability, comfort and cost) and the retention of so much heritage. But of course, none of that feeds the agenda of federalism, dictatorships and us merry band of Englanders merely being unpleasantly held hostage. Tell a brexiteer we are behind Estonia, Latvia and Luxembourg in numerous ways and they just won't believe you.

We'll see how the populist era goes, hopefully its a very very short one.

 

But all these under 20s and 30s won’t be that age age forever so there opinions will inevitably change with age

 

But they'll have started from a more enlightened viewpoint.

 

Walloon, Flemish or other? Its a deliciously complex country Belgium. Personally I much prefer the north to the south, but like in so many other parts of Europe, as we have here, there are very strong differences from one part to another dating back sometimes thousands of years where territories were different.

I often think the UK has a very different mindset because its surrounded by water and hasn't had the number of territory changes many of our continental cousins have.