Why are people dying in care homes?

They will be as far as i'm aware for people who wouldn't be on end of life care plans.

 

I think care homes are closed shops at the minute even visits from nurses and doctors are very very limited.

 

Many care home residents already have DNR's in place, agreed in advance with their family.

 

From people I know who have worked in the care sector - it's very common for them to have a DNR (though that's not what they're called nowadays). Also have had relatives that have been in care homes, both had care plans in place (DNR?)

My Paramedic mate went in and collected a CV patient from a care home last week and delivered him to hospital - so, as usual, no absolutes here.

 

Yes (although I've not out much thought into the implications I have to say) and my grandparents both had them too.


It just seems totally illogical to tell millions of people that their free will and ability to make a decision for themselves has been removed in order save other people's lives and yet still allow those who contract it to choose whether or not to receive treatment

 

Of course it’s illogical we have a lockdown but that doesn’t allow you to remove the rights of those not to be resuscitated.

 

The same reason some people are considered uneconomic for certain treatments. I'm on a second line biological medication that I had to jump through a lot of hoops for and luckily I was in my 30s when assessed for it.

 

Although I'm delighted that 103 year old grandma recovered, a part of me did think it's a shame that couldn't be the 28 year pregnant woman in Luton or the 13 year old boy a couple of weeks back. Terrible thought I know!

 

it was part of the emergency legislation

 

This is happening.

not sure what the issue would be with it though?

 

I'd like you to have a think about what a care home, and it's elder sister a nursing home, actually is. For the vast majority it is the last place they are going to live. They have lived out much of their life and now, to varying degrees, cannot care for themselves as they once could. They're old, or have underlying health conditions, or in many cases, both. Most are already receiving palliative care, to varying degrees, on a daily basis. Ranging from full 24 hour care to prescription medication that controls any underlying condition and helps reduce or eliminate pain.

None of the above means these people are not important. And it is exactly for this reason that the appropriate treatment is given. The choice is not based on economics as implied in this thread, it is based on the correct course of care. Many of these people would not survive the ventilation process. They'd be taken into hospital, away from any friends or family or friendly care staff, be put in an induced coma, ventilated and die. Or they could be allowed to die with dignity, without pain or discomfort, in a setting they are used to, that is set up to care for sick people.

That's not to say there aren't some older, fitter, more sprightly people living in care homes. And if there's a chance they'll survive they'll be treated just like anyone else.

This kind of choice is not new, it doesn't just apply to Covid-19. It is taken every day. If you went to the doctor after feeling unwell and were diagnosed with terminal cancer: a primary skin cancer that had since spread to your lungs, liver and kidneys. An operation would kill you there and then. Chemotherapy or radio therapy would make you extremely unwell before you died. Or you could spend the precious time you have left with the people you love, and when the time came, have a qualified carer to ensure you didn't suffer.

That people are dying in care homes because they're not being treated is not the issue. The issue is we let Covid-19 into our care homes and did almost nothing to protect the people within. That's the scandal.

 

Convinced my girlfriend to not go back to work as a carer. No ppe. Don't want them wearing masks yet incase it scares the residents. Agency staff working at different homes coming in and out. They've had 3 patients who all had symptoms at some point come back in without being checked. Workers in the care industry aren't equipped or trained to deal with a global pandemic. Especially not for £8.21 an hour.

 

I agree, training is very haphazard for carers.

 

What a poor reply

 

Thanks for the in-depth reply jay. I didn't know the reason and couldn't really work it out.mwasnt sure if it was the hospital's/medics saying no (as you've explained), the nursing homes as others claimed or the people themselves.

I didn't for one minute think it was on a cost basis at all as even though I wouldn't put that past the Tories I know they aren't stupid enough to so blatantly do that.

I do understand them being assessed and a decision being made that essentially it's pointless but with the numbers they're claiming I do still have to wonder exactly who is making that assessment? It seems like a really high number as just hope that it's medics.

You are absolutely right though that much much more should have been done to isolate care homes from the very beginning. We've both agreed from the beginning that the vulnerable have been given far too much freedom when they were the ones who truly needed the strict rules. In the case of care homes it's not the vulnerable who needed stricter measures but that measures simply had to have been put in place at them all to keep the carers protected and ensure that the care homes were in protected bubbles somehow.

 

I'd use a different turn of phrase than 'given far too much freedom', maybe something like 'done our very best to protect'. It's a much easier sell.

 

Aye but when it comes down to it it's far more accurate. I was told I cannot work, I cannot go outside except for essentials. My freedom was taken away. And it was taken away because the vulnerable were given too much of it, and abused it, in the weeks the preceded. Not all of them, certainly not those inside care homes, but vast numbers.

 

Just so you know, and this is from my neighbour (the senior nurse in charge of covid wards in DRI), anybody above 65 is automatically put on DNR, so the option of any kind of help to breathe will be limited, if you are over that age.

 

I think we should try to get away from blaming the victims of the disease. That will happen in due course as the Tory government attempt to shift the blame away from their incompetent handling of the entire episode. Just like the poor who were blamed and made to pay for the 2008 global financial crisis. Hancock has already begun the narrative, questioning whether health care workers caught the disease at work and accusing them of using too much PPE.

From a hospital manager - "We're not allowed wear PPE until it is confirmed the patient has Covid-19. More often than not this is confirmed by a chest X-Ray, which is instant, rather than a blood test, which takes way too long. With no protective equipment we prep a patient who is clearly suffering from Covid-19, an X-Ray is taken, it's clear they're suffering lung damage from the virus, but only at this point can PPE be worn."

 

Got any links Mario?

It does look like testing & PPE is lacking. Would appreciate your perspective though.