This oven ready trade deal with the EU Boris said he'd got

Thing is Helen, we seem to be headed for a situation where we have no free trade deal with the EU, Biden's US won't agree a favourable one because of Brexit/the potential danger to the GFA, and China can seemingly no longer be trusted. That's the big three economic blocs in the world taken out. We could very quickly reverse two of those situations by compromising on a deal with Europe, but the repercussions of not doing so will likely be felt by those worst-placed to bear it.

 

This is a lie. The European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act was passed in the House of Commons on 23rd January 2020, and signed by Boris Johnson with the EU on 24th January 2020. The General Election was 12th December 2019.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brexit_withdrawal_agreement

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election

‘Oven ready’ was specifically relating to the Withdrawal Agreement and not a trade deal. The EU had specifically and publicly refused to even begin trade negotiations until the Withdrawal Agreement was signed.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...h-a-trade-deal-with-the-eu-by-the-end-of-2020

 

As before the deal was agreed with the EU on 17/10:19. See actual Gove source not Wikipedia. As before see Conservative manifesto which explicitly states a trade deal. If he was referring to the WA. Find one specific example of Johnson saying WA. Directly from him as a quote. I get you like to defend liars. I don’t.

 

I appreciate the fact that you have taken the time to explain your reasoning, and the logic behind your vote. I do not agree, but I see that you have put a lot of thought into the process and I realise that after spending so much effort in resolving your opinions on the matter, there is very little chance that those opinions can be changed, especially by someone who voted on the basis of the theoretical short term effect on our economy. I do not intend to make any attempt to do so. However, I would like to confirm that the way that you resolved your voting options is far different to the way that the majority of your fellow Leave voters resolved their options. All I can conclude is that you have picked some very strange bedfellows. I also believe that as an island, the break-up of the UK would be a disaster, but that argument is for a different time.

 

I agree

 

Umberto Eco's 1st, 2nd, 8th, 11th, 12th, 13th and 14th observations of fascism:

#1: "The cult of tradition" - Fishing is a traditional, although from a rational perspective dying in the UK, industry
#2: "The rejection of modernism" - Modern industries are not as important as the old ones
#8: "The enemy is both strong and weak" - The EU is about to collapse, the EU is bullying us.
#11: "Everybody can become an hero" - the brave fishing folk fighting against the oppressive EU
#12: "Machismo and weaponry" - how many WW2 references do you see in the governments response to Brexit (and Covid)
#13: "Selective populism" - Making fishing important to an island nation, with the strongest supporters those living furthest from the sea
#14: "Newspeak" - Simple 3 word slogans that limit the scope for reasoned analysis and critique.

If you do an in-depth analysis, you can get up to 11 of the 14 quite easily.
https://www.openculture.com/2016/11...ist-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html

All that an increase in the fishing industry is going to do is send out more men to work long hours at a dangerous job for low pay. But the heroic fishermen are seen as more important to the tradition and psyche of an island nation than the creative artists (who bring in £100bn+ per year), IT experts (£20bn+), legal experts (£20bn+), etc, etc.

And, at the same time, they are happy to let Arcadia or Debenhams go under - both of which employ more people than fishing.

You posted something the other day about democracy dying 10 months ago. I'd posit that it died about 5 years ago, but any system where a party that wins the most votes doesn't end up in power has always been fatally flawed (see GE 1951 as an example).

 

Across the entire EU, fishing employs about 180,000 people - 0.04% of the population. In France, the entire agriculture sector only accounts for 1.5% of the economy, including farming, fishing and hunting and employs (again) around 0.04% of the population. Its a slightly bigger issue in France than here, but the French fleet also has access to vast chunks of the North Atlantic, the Mediterranean and about half of the Channel.

I think France are making it an issue because we (Farage, etc) told everyone how important it was. If you go into negotiations and you know what is more important to one side, it is easy to win concessions in other areas. Paris taking 1% of the London financial services market would be massively better for France than losing all the fishing rights to UK waters. If Dublin, Frankfurt, Amsterdam and Madrid can also take 1% each that leaves the UK with a big headache and all the others with big gains at our expense.

 

Not quite. Gove's (adopted) dad was in the fishing industry and sold it around the time that the CFP came in but Gove blamed the EU for it. His dad didn't blame the EU, but other factors (200 mile limit, increased competition for dock space at Aberdeen with oil rig support boats, cod wars, etc) and sold it as a going concern.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-company-eu-policies-fish-processing-aberdeen

 

He bought one far too big, Did not read the instructions properly and now found it won't even fit in the oven!!
F******g Amateur!!
Did anyone seriously think negotiating with the EU, based on other nations experiences not to mention our own was ever going to be any thing than a nightmare?

 

The theory is we buy it cheap from China, and accept it with our (lower than EU) standards, then sell it on through NI into the EU without the goods having to meet their standards. Its either that, or undercut the EU countries by reducing wages, increasing hours and reducing safety and other standards.

 

The government *might* eventually save a lot of money. But we as consumers won't. Instead of the government paying £9-13bn per year into the EU, and being part of the customs union, the government will pay £3bn for infrastructure and save a load of money. We as importing consumers will pay an estimated extra £12bn/year in tariffs which go directly into the government coffers. So the government will be better off. *We* certainly won't.

 

I wouldn’t hold your breath.

I can’t see many admitting they got this wrong. Ever.

 

To stop the muslims coming.

 

Tory MP's seem to be bought extremely frequently ;-)

 

I was close.. My post was based on an interview on TV with Gove several years ago, probably at the time of the referendum.

 

So your criticising the EU for helping a mainly British based company? Admittedly they helped Slovakia and India at the same time.

 

Because there are very few ways that Brexit can be seen to be taking back control and fishing rights (although the fishing industry itself thinks it is fine to sell it's quota to foreign boats) is something that Brexiteers have nailed to their mast as some sort of massive win.

 

I am because it shifted jobs from the UK. It shed 5000 jobs in the UK and created 4500 in Slovakia. A process that was started even before the brexit vote.This is what annoys me about the EU's level playing field. If there was a standard of taxation, state aid, workers rights etc it would be fine. But there isnt. Why would JLR want to relocate production to Slovakia? To my mind, unless you're going to tell me something I've never read anywhere else, they were attracted by lower wages and the EU allowing a large amount of state aid. For a good example of the level playing field, The EU hasnt lifted a finger against Viktor Oban. He passed legislation last year in Hungary that overtime is compulsory for all workers and that employers can defer payments for it for up to three years. Do we really want to compete with that? One day, beyond our life-times there will be some leveling of standards around the EU. However, there are two problems with that. Firstly we will have to endure a share of levelling down with countries that are levelling up. Secondly the EU seem hell bent on expansion into countries that have even lower standards of living, like Albania and Macedonia. Cue more EU aid and permitted state aid and more jobs being exported to countries with lower wages and standards.

 

But the Brexit camp definitely did say that a trade deal with the EU would be the easiest thing in the world to do.

 

There is some validity to what you say, but look at the wider context of globalisation and the wests addiction to wanting cheaper and cheaper goods. If the EU are interventionist, you can rightly have a dialogue about sovereignty. If they aren't interventionist, they are criticised for not being. Those jobs you cite would likely have gone outside of Europe. Can you blame the EU for trying to retain them in an EU country for benefits of its member states?

Companies are working systems for their own benefits. There are plenty of jobs that have already gone to the EU mainland, and numerous HQ's that have relocated. If no deal (which is looking more and more likely) there will be many many more.

Down the years, we've also benefitted hugely from being a bridge to Europe for overseas investment and non EU countries planting a base. And doesn't the fact that Orban passed the law you mention, show that an EU member can pass its own laws?

I've seen numerous articles down the years which have suggested those 3 nations have been kept more checked because of the net monies they receive from the EU. Unless their was an alignment of taxation and currencies and laws across the bloc, the leverage the EU has is minimal against sovereign countries. The right wing press and the brextremists don't seem to want closer alignment though. So it's not especially fair to criticise the EU for both aspects.