More Politics (sorry): NIP

Corbyn didn't paint himself in glory either don't forget. I've heard all sorts of things, largely from left leaning sources (one of which i know personally) that show some of his actions to have been childish beyond belief.

Corbyn failed to carry the centre when he was leader. Starmer is failing to carry the left. I'm not sure there is anyone in that party who could bring unity to it and make it an electable force.

 

Priority #1 for Starmer when he took over as leader was to adopt in full the legal requirements of the EHRC report which Labour, under Corbyn, had shamefully enabled. There's no optional element to this, and it means that the party has to adopt procedures and processes to deal with, in particular, the antisemitism which had become rife, thanks to the far left entryism into the party enabled primarily by Momentum.

The SCG reacted in typical fashion to this, in particular Corbyn himself who's dismissal of the EHRC report on the day it was published was the cause of him being suspended (since reversed) and losing the Labour whip (still in place). Momentum saw this as an attack on the left and started a co-ordinated campaign of motions through the CLP's objecting to this, declaring no confidence in the General Secretary, David Evans, along with Starmer. CLP's were instructed to treat these motions as 'out of order'. Those who did not do so became subject to special measures, with various activists being suspended as a result. Essentially, this has continued since then, with most CLP meetings I've attended having one or more of these types of motion on the agenda. However, the so-called 'mass exodus' of members isn't transpiring based on the membership numbers that are reported within our own CLP branch. Those leaving are being replaced, on the whole, by new or returning members who couldn't identify with the party led by Corbyn.

Starmer's so-called purge of the left is nothing more than a reaction against those obstructing/denying the content of the EHRC report. Personally, I'm happy to see those members ultimately being expelled or resigning from the party. Equally, I don't object to Labour having members from the far left, as has always been the case. The only thing I object to members trying to undermine the party from within.

Ultimately, elections aren't decided by either membership numbers (Labour proudly declared themselves as the largest party in Europe in both 2017 and 2019, and subsequently lost both general elections) or Twitter followers. Winning over those who previously didn't vote for you is the key thing they need to achieve.

Starmer has done a decent, if unspectacular, job with regard to the EHRC report, and more generally elsewhere, but his task is constantly being undermined by the minority of SCG MP's and their supporters who, as always, are more interested in opposing the element of the Labour Party they don't agree with than they are the Tories. In doing so, they perpetuate the situation that gave rise to an 80 seat Tory majority at GE19. The likes of Nadia Whittome refusing to condemn the actions of the Bristol rioters on a BBC live broadcast looks awful when viewed through the eyes of a floating voter.

The best thing for Labour's electoral prospects would be for the wider public (i.e. those not actively following politics) to see that the Corbyn/Momentum element of the party is no longer the dominant faction. The scale of this task can't be underestimated, as it took years to achieve this last time around with a process started by Kinnock, continued by John Smith and ultimately successfully concluded by Blair, to a point where Labour became electable. The same arguments at that time brought about the creation of Socialist Labour, who demonstrated via the various election campaigns they fought, that they were nothing more than a fringe party.

 

I certainly don't think he was a saint. But the very first action of a lot of the Labour front bench after his election was to flat out refuse - in public - to serve in his shadow cabinet. Despite that, his early choices were remarkably 'big tent' up until the Smith/Benn attempted coup. Even following that I could have forgiven it if the PLP had accepted the decision of the membership the second time round, but they didn't. And that's even before you consider the cadre of officials who were actively working against the party just in order to oust Corbyn.

 

Vote share isn't really the important metric though, number of seats won is. Corbyn did get a good vote share, but lost the marginal seats. Suggested that he was good at preaching to the converted, but not able to get people from outside his echo chamber on board.

 

I think the most important thing is to understand why those rejections occurred and what the build up to that "coup" was. The friction and differences weren't attempted to be healed and much fuel was being put on the fire. The most common thing I heard was the complete lack of basic professionalism and organisation.

That plans wouldn't be signed off, that airtime slots were having to be given up because of that and when shadow ministers did get a slot, they were often counter briefed ahead of that slot so they were immediately undermined. I'd heard Corbyn abdicated much to Murphy and Milne. To the point he refused to speak with anyone. Refused to take calls or reply to e-mails. The coup (as I heard it) was the final straw because he wouldn't talk to those who eventually stood against him.

I don't think there are saints. But it could have been handled much differently, and it should always be leadership who play the biggest role in setting culture and implementing systems to deal with how an organisation operates.

 

centrist Labour is pretty unelectable. Brown is 10x the politician Starmer is and couldn’t get above 30%. Miliband was a better politician with more nous than Starmer and couldn’t get above 35% of vote share.

Starmer has been appalling and needs replacing as soon as possible. He has zero ideas about how to win without Scotland and I say that as someone who voted for him.

The only section of Labour that can be seen to have deliberately thrown an election is the Labour right. Diverting funds away from target seats just being the tip of that iceberg.

Anyhoo I guess the May elections and Hartlepool by election will be the better judge of whether Starmer has been a success or not this far.

 

Polling average. 7 points behind and going backwards. When the tories are openly corrupt and have been extremely negligent in their response to Covid.

I can’t think of a single policy that Labour are pushing. The call re the local elections is vote Labour to increase NHS pay. Maybe someone needs to tell Keir that local authorities have zero influence over NHS pay to stop him looking like an idiot.

 

I don't disagree with much of that.

It very much sticks in the craw for a supposed pro European politician to kill off any hope of aligning with Europe more, when there were so many millions who would vote for that. Obviously, he may win a few leave labour voters, though that venn diagram crosses over with lexit who are often more left and wouldnt vote for him anyway, while given millions of pro Europeans with no political home.

I always knew he had a mammoth job. I didn't expect him to hamstring himself as much as he has.

 

Its cottage pie tonight.

 

To be honest, it's fair enough to debate whether Starmer is the best person to be Labour leader. Fair enough for people to withdraw their membership if they feel it's appropriate. What I don't get is people saying they cannot vote for him in an election (unless they live in a seat that is more likely to go Lib Dem, Green or another centre / left / not tory party).

 

Too warm for that surely?

 

I think a lot of people are sick of choosing the least worst option rather than one they actually support.

Labour need to engage now with those centre left parties now if they want the electorate to consider the value of coalition and a changed electoral system. It’s an argument to have now not later.

If they engage with that then I would agree vote for the party most likely to achieve a rainbow coalition without that you may as well just vote on your conscience.

 

But would he have had the same popularity if he’d not taken the advice from the remainers?

It’s one of those fairly obvious points that Corbynites refuse to accept. It’s exactly the position he took which gave him his popularity as well as his unpopularity.

I’m well to the left of Starmer, but am totally frustrated with the left of the party throwing the entire party under a bus because they don’t like the leader.

Listening to local party activists who have more nuanced opinions about the left bank than they do about youth unemployment in Yorkshire makes my blood boil. Watching old school proper socialist women’s rights groups being eviscerated by a load of teenagers fighting for trans rights that wipe away a hundred years of women’s struggles.

The left has got itself into a right mess, whilst the right (and far right) are marching on draped in Union jacks with their meaningless 3 word catchphrases shi tting on everyone.

 

Same place the tories found it for their mates when they gave them massive contracts that were never delivered on...

 

This makes me chuckle, Corbyn spent his entire career working against the leadership of the Labour Party, and as soon as he was elected leader, expected the whole party to unite behind him.

It’s a comedy sketch worthy of the Tory party.

 

I agree pal but dont call me Shirley. If i wasnt so greedy I'd plate it up for tomorrow but i know I'd make an alternative and then eat that as well.

 

can’t disagree with that. The whole Palestine thing. I couldn’t really give a ****. Yeah if I think about it in the abstract bits crap but we have more pressing things to go on.

The appearance to me as a floating voter is when I was a Labour member I voted for Starmer based on his 10 pledges and I left because I thought he was not fulfilling those promises.

I’m a long way from a Corbynite I thought he was pretty dreadful and should have moved aside after 2017 but I think the pivot away from respecting the vote in 2017 to backing a second ref was a major mistake.

As for young people and trans rights. It’s not my fight but if they passionately enough to engage in politics as a result of it more power to them. As the Housemartins once said apathy is happy that it won without a fight.

 

Without doubt the biggest problem the new Labour leadership have is that they’ve blamed everything on Corbyn.

Refusal to admit that the Brexit strategy was the main reason for their downfall is what’s cost them.

50 of the 52 seats lost were leave constituencies.

Everyone knows Starmer was one of the biggest voices for remain (the famous clip with Dennis Skinner) & the Brexiteers see straight through him so they won’t vote for him & at the same time he’s managed to alienate the 3m new Labour voters Corbyn brought to the party in 2017.

I’m not trying to say everyone likes Corbyn or anything like that. I appreciate plenty were turned against him but there’s no doubt the biggest issue at the last election was Brexit. The Labour Party should have gone with a leaver for leader.

On anti-semitism, the biggest problem was it wasn’t called out for what it largely was, which was a targeted attack on the leadership by people who’d failed to oust Corbyn in the coup. If anyone’s read the reports findings the major issue was that processes weren’t in place to deal with a large number of complaints. It meant when people out to get Corbyn like Margaret Hodge put in over 500 complaints (3 turned out to be from Labour Party members) genuine complaints & real anti-semitism wasn’t dealt with in a timely manner.

I’m not dismissing anti-semitism in the party by the way. I know there were plenty of cranks, mainly on social media as I saw some for myself. There were over 700,000 members at one bit as well so I’d imagine there was at least a few hundred racists amongst that lot if not more.

I don’t even think it was much of an issue to the electorate either. If you’re willing to vote for Boris Johnson’s party, unless you’re Jewish then anti-semitism & any other racism isn’t much of a concern for you. I speak to a lot of people in the 50+ age bracket & I’ve heard plenty criticise their Brexit strategy & a fair few criticise Corbyn but I’ve never heard any mention anti-semitism.

 

I’ve also never met anyone in the real world who considered either Labour to be antisemitic or that antisemitism in general to be an issue. An average Muslim will face more prejudice in a single day that an average Jewish person will in a year. There are whole papers that devote a significant amount of time and space to demonising Muslims day in day out.