Laurel Hubbard

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board' started by Merde Tete, May 7, 2021.

  1. BarnsleyReds

    BarnsleyReds Well-Known Member

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    You’re completely missing the point. Cis women is only used when referring to cis women specifically and not trans women. (It’s two words by the way, not a single word)

    The term woman refers to women that are either trans or cis, something which you claim to be ok with. So how do you refer to cis women specifically if you don’t want to use cis?
     
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  2. Redhelen

    Redhelen Well-Known Member

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    You don't. You use women because that's what we are.
     
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  3. BarnsleyReds

    BarnsleyReds Well-Known Member

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    Nobody is trying to claim that you're not a woman, Helen.

    Trans women are also women though so in some situations an additional descriptor is needed. That's all.
     
  4. Redhelen

    Redhelen Well-Known Member

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    Fine, so there is a descriptor if you need sub categories. Would trans men and trans women be more of a muchness for sport because surely it is fairer to have a trans category if so?
     
  5. BarnsleyReds

    BarnsleyReds Well-Known Member

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    I think trans categories are probably the fairest solution overall, yes. In professional sport at least. They're going to struggle to gain recognition and legitimacy at the start, especially due to the small talent pool, but hopefully it can become a viable way forward.
     
  6. Sionnach

    Sionnach Active Member

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    No, I don't think I'm missing the point. You're saying cis women is used 'when referring to cis women specifically '. I'm saying if you need to refer to cis women, then call us women. The distinction should be, On the occasion one needs to be made 'women and trans women'. It's not insulting to say someone is trans, and I've no objection to them being called women either. This is simply about times a distinction needs to be made.
    As for the insinuation that 'my claim' to be fine with trans women is disingenuous, you'll just have to believe that it not as you wish. I would point out however that my daughters best friend is undergoing transitioning from female to male at the moment and is a welcome guest in my house and my daughter will be travelling with him to have the second stage ops done shortly.
     
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  7. BarnsleyReds

    BarnsleyReds Well-Known Member

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    By saying "women and trans women" you're saying that trans women are separate and not included under the term 'women' though. That's literally what the implication of what you're saying is.

    I really don't understand why using the term cis is a problem. You're going to have to explain that beyond "I don't like it" because to me it's not a contentious term in the slightest outside of transphobia.
     
  8. Redhelen

    Redhelen Well-Known Member

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    don't hear cis men very much though? Cis men aren't losing at all by trans men entering their sporting arena. If you have to separate say biological woman.
     
  9. BarnsleyReds

    BarnsleyReds Well-Known Member

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    Why is biological woman more acceptable than cis woman? I really don’t understand that.

    You do hear cis men, but trans men are not talked about as much as trans women which is why it’s not as common I think.

    I’m not really talking about sports really here, I’m just talking in general. I think in sports it needs a lot more research because there is a lot of conflicting data and research out there. It’s also a lot more complicated because there are cis women that have a much higher testosterone level than average also and they also have an advantage over women with the ‘average’ testosterone levels. I know that’s different to trans women, but it’s all part of the same wider discussion imo. More definitive research needed.
     
  10. Sionnach

    Sionnach Active Member

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    Ok, let's put it this way. You are saying the terms cis women and trans women are fine, but women and trans women arent. Why? The term trans women stays the same, so no problem there. It still includes the word women, so no exclusion there either. What you object to is women still being able to call themselves women. Your point is that by women calling ourselves women, instead of taking on a new explanatory title we are excluding trans women. I disagree. Trans women are women, so let them be referred to as such, and if a distinction needs to be made, then let it be, as is always the case, the new term that is used for that. When Cornetto introduced a mint chocolate variety they called it Mint Chocolate Cornetto, they didn't need to change the name of the original, the distinction was already made in the naming of the second one. That's not meant as a facetious comment, it's just an example that I think might get across my point a little clearer.I

    Perhaps the term cis women isn't a problem for you because you're a man? Perhaps if the term 'men' were being dropped in favour of cis men you would feel differently? Maybe my problem is that the word 'woman' is beginning to be regarded as something no politically correct establishment wants to be associated with. And it's got nothing to do with transphobia. That's a lazy way of looking at what I'm saying
     
  11. Redhelen

    Redhelen Well-Known Member

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    As a woman I want to be called a woman not a cis woman. Don't see why there should be any issue around that personally.
     
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  12. BarnsleyReds

    BarnsleyReds Well-Known Member

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    The point is that the term women refers to cis women and trans women. By using women to explicitly refer to cis women and not trans women (aka by using “women and trans women”), you’re excluding trans women from that term. Your cornetto analogy makes no sense whatsoever because mint chocolate ice cream isn’t a subset of chocolate ice cream. A more accurate analogy is that a Ford Focus and a Vauxhall Corsa are both cars and can both be referred to as cars, but if a distinction needs to be made it makes more sense to use the more specific term.

    I haven’t seen anybody objecting to the term ‘woman’. I’ll make a sign and march beside you in the street if I see that happening, but it doesn’t.
    “Cis women” is a completely separate term, not a replacement. Nothing is stopping you referring to yourself as a woman. That’s still the term that’s used when no distinction needs to be made between trans women and cis women.

    And I often refer to myself as a cis man when in a situation that calls for it. It’s not a term I have an issue with in the slightest.
     
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  13. Redhelen

    Redhelen Well-Known Member

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    OK but I don't want to be CIS.
     
  14. BarnsleyReds

    BarnsleyReds Well-Known Member

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    Imagine a hypothetical scenario where you had to refer to black women and white women separately.

    Would you consider “white women and black women” to be more acceptable or “women and black women”?

    There’s no difference between that and “cis women and trans women”.
     
  15. Sionnach

    Sionnach Active Member

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    At this point I dont think I can make my point any clearer, if you still don't understand, then we'll just have to agree to disagree :)
     
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  16. Redhelen

    Redhelen Well-Known Member

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    There is a big difference and if you can't see that then we're struggling to have this discussion imo.
     
  17. BarnsleyReds

    BarnsleyReds Well-Known Member

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    What’s the difference then?

    “Black Women” and “White Women” are both specific subsets of “Women” just the same as “Cis Women” and “Trans Women” are.

    Either you agree with that or you think trans women shouldn’t be able to call themselves women. It’s as simple as that really.

    Again, nothing is stopping you calling yourself a woman. Cis is just the term for a specific subset when a distinction is necessary.

    I think biological woman is just as acceptable as cis, so I’m curious why you are ok with that but not cis? I don’t get that at all.
     
  18. Redhelen

    Redhelen Well-Known Member

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    I just don't like the term. Be like me telling people with disabilities or black people what to refer to themselves as.
     
  19. BarnsleyReds

    BarnsleyReds Well-Known Member

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    But nobody is telling you to refer to yourself as that. The term woman is still perfectly acceptable and always will be. But woman includes trans women also, which is why a more specific term is required for some very specific uses. Nobody is making you refer to yourself as that, you can dislike the term if you want, nobody is telling you to like it or to use it in the slightest.

    I just don’t think that I don’t think you should have the right to force the terms you like and dislike on anybody else. If a black person doesn’t like the term black, they have no obligation to refer to themselves as that, but I think most people would consider it unreasonable if they try and force other people to stop using a term that is widely used.
     
  20. Redhelen

    Redhelen Well-Known Member

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    I've always been a woman, not cis woman I don't want to tick forms saying I'm a CIS woman. And yes, women are being told what they should use unfortunately. There is a big issue about women in sport in general and I am worried that the push for trans women re changing rooms etc will make it even less likely that young Asian women for eg.will participate.
     

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