There are some vile people in this country

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board' started by Farnham_Red, Nov 30, 2021.

  1. nezbfc

    nezbfc Well-Known Member

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    I try to not get involved in these types of posts/discussions. But... For what it's worth, my thoughts.

    The whole immigration and asylum system requires a global, if not EU solution.

    It will never be solved between the UK and France. Never. UK blames France and France Blames the UK.

    Wether we are in the EU or not, the free flow of freedom of movement within the EU also has its issues. Especially for town planners not being able to react quick enough for services (schools, hospitals, GPs, housing etc)

    I don't doubt the majority who are fleeing their own countries have valid reason to do so. In the main, rocking up to the EU for example, if someone is fleeing persecution or fearing for their lives, would they care where they go? I don't know, but probably bad assumption on my part is that if they are safe, and with their family, would they really care if they ended up in France, Germany, the UK, Belgium etc etc.

    So the freedom of movement within the EU allows exactly the sort of movement we are seeing. So I can see Frances point to some extent. The original thought of claiming asylum on the first safe country isn't viable, because they are free to move anyway. And then you would have an overburden on those first safe countries. (By that definition, the UK would get nobody, which is massively unfair on the EU)

    But if we (the UK gov) are paying some money to France, it's not entirely a best use of resources.

    That money should be donated to the EU to pay towards an EU or global solution. Simply giving it France serves no purpose as far as I can see.

    About time, the EU helped France, and we helped the EU.

    Come up with a plan rather than shuffling deck chairs. And between everyone, come up with a workable solution to spread the load so to speak. I'm sure enough room will be available across our land and the EU.

    So, as despicable as it is with the situation in that article with the RNLI, it's a symptom resulting from a mass failure of the EU and the UK to form a viable solution to anything immigration.
     
  2. Redarmy87

    Redarmy87 Well-Known Member

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    I think a major issue is the political wrangling between the UK and France. I do think we as a country have done more and been more welcoming on the whole than France however, and that is why refugees prefer to come here and leave France. In terms of freedom of movement in Europe I'm not sure that applies to non-EU refugees - the rule is that they should seek asylum in the first safe country.

    However, you can see now on the Belarus/Polish border that refugees want to get to Poland to get to Germany, because like the UK Germany is generally more welcoming and accommodating (than Poland). Of course Germany, like the UK, has its share of extreme right-wing idiots, but as a whole it is more accommodating to refugees and taking care of them as a nation than countries such as Poland and France.

    I'm no expert but basing this on comments I have heard from refugees themselves. People generally know when they are not wanted and can sense the places that will welcome them more.

    In terms of the people in Hastings, they are the lowest of the low. They are everything i hate about this country, and I'll never understand it. And people should be careful not to align all of these people with Brexit, or the Tories I.e. to pigeon-hole. Good people voted for Brexit and bad people voted to remain and vice versa. Nothing is so black and white. Evil is evil, and people choose to indulge in it for hatred's sake alone. I prefer to point the finger at individuals for their actions and for the hate that they choose, rather than let them off somewhat by saying 'oh, it's all Brexit's fault' or it's all down to the tories etc etc. That just makes the gap even wider. These people in Hastings should be called out for what they are, as individuals, as a small, moronic group of imbeciles on a beach who likely have blood on their hands. What a world, eh?
     
  3. Don

    Donny-Red Well-Known Member

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    I didn’t read beyond the first paragraph because you’d already proved yourself misinformed.

    France make 14th in the world rankings for having taken >18000 Syrian refugees. Which is 9x more than the U.K. They also give more in benefits to Asylum Seekers. We don’t make the top 25.

    There is no rule that says that refugees have to claim refuge in the first country they get to. But the Far Right populists have made a good job of getting that lie to stick.

    Bizarrely - the loud bairning from the far right is having a perverse consequence. Screaming the lie that ‘we’re too soft on asylum seekers’ oddly means that some Asylum seekers will see us as an attractive place to come.

    Crazy eh?
     
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  4. Ton

    Tonjytyke Well-Known Member

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    This might not be relevant to the subject, but I think it’s important to note that the UK has never been party to what has been referred to as free movement. The UK never joined the Schengen group of nations and so always had control over who came into the country. That’s why we had to show passports when we went EU destinations, where as going from France to, say Belgium, you don’t even have to slow down.
     
  5. Redarmy87

    Redarmy87 Well-Known Member

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    As I said I was just basing it on testimonies from refugees (albeit a small proportion). Also, don't you think the figures are skewed i.e. those refugees that arrived in France and then moved on to another country? I don't know the answer, but it's a valid question.

    I wasn't aware that the first country of arrival thing wasn't a rule, I stand corrected.

    And yes I agree on your third point, but I still believe we do more and are willing to do more than France - 'taking' refugees is a whole different ball game to welcoming them, and ask yourself: why do so many refugees want to leave France for the UK? You mention the extra benefits that Asylum Seekers receive in France, well the advantages of leaving France clearly outweight the benefits.

    Also, maybe read the whole post before commenting. It isn't helpful to pick up on one comment and say 'well that's incorrect so I'm not reading the rest of it.' I don't think I've ever read someone's post and done that. If anything, if they make an incorrect statement at the beginning i'm more inclined to keep reading to decipher what their intentions are and what they are trying to say on the whole.
     
  6. nezbfc

    nezbfc Well-Known Member

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    Stephen Dawson likes this.
  7. Don

    Donny-Red Well-Known Member

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    The data isn’t skewed because it’s the number accepted as Asylum Seekers.
    Once accepted in France they can’t then just move on elsewhere.

    You could do some actual research re benefits and being ‘welcoming’. We’re miles down the world table for accepting refugees, because we’re the opposite of ‘welcoming’.

    Our Home Secretary in the last year has:
    Suggested setting up machinery in the channel to overturn boats of refugees.
    Tried to make it illegal to save the lives of refugees (against international law).
    Publicly attacked immigration lawyers, leading to actual violence on them from members of the public. Then refused to acknowledge the fact.

    But - like you say ‘we’re more welcoming than other countries’. :rolleyes:

    Admittedly there’s a few rogue right wing states in the EU, and they’re particularly bad. But in comparison to our economic peers, we have a terrible record on Asylum Seekers.

    You only have to listen to the language describing the situation on the BBC, they use the phrase ‘illegal crossings’ (not illegal). That’s without getting into the mire of the Sun and Mail.

    We interview right wing politicians gazing out to sea, and amplify their voices. Peston states categorically on News at 10 that immigration is the most important topic to voters (it’s not even top 3 according to the polls).

    We’re being gaslit by Fascists, and apologies, I’m sure you mean well, but your post proves that it’s working.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2021
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  8. man

    mansfield_red Well-Known Member

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    Mainly because either they speak the language or already have a family link here.
     
  9. lk3

    lk311 Well-Known Member

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    Wow, never knew she suggested that.
    Amazing how in this world today someone can be held accountable and made to resign from a position for something they posted years ago, but a very senior member of Parliament can get away with that.
     
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  10. StatisTYKE

    StatisTYKE Well-Known Member

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    None of us will ever understand refugees. To do that you have to have been one. My father was. He was orphaned in WW2. I remember us watching (on TV) folk trudging away from burning villages during the Bosnian War in the 1990s. Never forgot his words.

    “Look at them poor buggers. You stay where you are they kill you. You go somewhere else, they kill you. You go with one side, they kill you. You go with another side, they kill you. What do you do?

    Answer that one.
     
  11. Redarmy87

    Redarmy87 Well-Known Member

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    I have based my research on people on the ground talking about their experiences. You can point to world tables all you like, but the reality is that contrary to your statement 'once accepted in France they can't then just move on elsewhere'.. I think that's exactly what is happening.

    As for Priti Patel, well I'm not going to make any excuses for her, she is dispicable. When I talk of supportive people I'm talking about people on the ground who genuinely care, not governments that make up league tables. Here in Bristol, for example, there are numerous charities working to help Syrian refugees and others, and I do believe we try and help them more than France, who bussed people all over France from Calais, displacing people living in the camp.

    I don't know if your intention is to be condescending by the way, but it comes across that way with your eye-rolling and general manner. For the record, I want us to welcome refugees, I don't care about the politics or league tables. I do believe we do welcome people as a nation with the people on the ground, though I can't argue against your points on the Home Secretary, but she doesn't represent me and she isn't representative of the people of this country as a whole. I also know that we have deplorable people in our society that put up a resistance to welcoming people in, but they are a minority.
     
  12. Redarmy87

    Redarmy87 Well-Known Member

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    Some, not all by any stretch. Some are so desperate that they will come anyway regardless of whether they speak the language or have family here, and France clearly isn't doing enough for a lot of refugees.
     
  13. Stephen Dawson

    Stephen Dawson Well-Known Member

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    I blame the Normans. They let those Jesuit priests come over in their canoe's and everybody has been at it ever since.
     
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  14. bfc

    bfc1001 Well-Known Member

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    It's looking like this is the offending incident . The guy very much needs dealing with and prosecuting as I believe it's a criminal offence to impede the emergency services . On the other hand I really hope the media dosent start painting the UK as a racist cesspit because of what appears to be 1 guy and his mate .
     
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  15. KamikazeCo-Pilot

    KamikazeCo-Pilot Well-Known Member

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    You managed to get 11th century French, 16th century Catholics and indigenous American culture all into one post! :)

    For my part I can never understand how human beings can be so nasty to other people, show no compassion, sympathy or empathy. I sometimes wish I was another species.
     
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  16. Stephen Dawson

    Stephen Dawson Well-Known Member

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    I wanted to be more inclusive :). Joking aside. It's been happening throughout history. I agree. I'd have thought that a bit of empathy should be held towards anybody making that sometimes treacherous crossing. Yes we can have our differences with France etc. However, aid should be provided and the resolution should be found afterwards. I wouldn't execute them like they did to the Jesuit priests though :).
     
  17. Red

    Red Rob Well-Known Member

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    Not surprised in the slightest by this, there are a huge number of scumbags in the UK, more so that pretty much any country I can think of.

    Read a great book recently called 'Hope not Fear' by Hassan Akkad, a Syrian refugee who has won a BAFTA for filming his journey to the UK and worked as a hospital cleaner during the pandemic. Would hugely recommend anyone to read it as it really helps to understand a refugees perspective and what they go through.

    It moved me to volunteer with my local refugee charity and hopefully can change others from being blase about the situation to having more understanding and compassion. We're beyond lucky in the western world to be born with incredible priviledges, many others aren't.
     
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  18. sadbrewer

    sadbrewer Well-Known Member

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    You're absolutely right there is no rule, I think there is sometimes confusion between UN Refugee law and EU law which gives Member States the ability to return migrants to the first EU state they entered.
     
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  19. Dav

    DavidCurriesMullet Well-Known Member

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    Brexit means no third country removals. Tory gaslighting daily about this.

    Basically if we opened up legal routes and took our fair share then maybe just maybe the EU will agree to put back in place the third country provision.

    However we'd need grown ups governing to create that kind of deal.
     
  20. Cam

    Cambridge Red Well-Known Member

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    Might be useful to have some fact when we are all discussing this
     
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