Russia invades Ukraine

And if we take him on?' I honestly think the only way this ends is by his own generals coming to their senses and seeing him for the huge liability he his to the Russian people inc them and acting accordingly...

 

Agree with you post in full.

one thing I read was that we shouldn’t be using ‘the’ in front of Ukraine any more. It’s a legacy from the Soviet days when Ukraine meant ‘border’ or similar so it was describing the border of the Soviet. They prefer just Ukraine these days as a sovereign nation, according to what i read anyway. Happy to be corrected.

 

Didn’t see that bit to be honest. Hopefully just a coincidence we don’t need any more escalations from Putin’s mob.

 

Close. Ukraine means ‘borderlands’. The equivalent word in Polish is ‘Kresy’

We think of borders as a defined line. But those central/east European borderlands stretch almost 1,000 miles. In that area - that’s been disputed for centuries - you have Ukrainians, Poles, Belarussians, Rutherians and more. Now imagine trying to put down hard borders based on ethnicity with that mix of national identities not to mention religions. Which is why we end up where we are today.

 

Don’t need to be a democracy to bring a dictatorship down , there’s plenty of examples especially South Africa where the Townships and sanctions helped bring it down . Lots of the former Soviet Union weren’t democracy’s .

 

I wouldn't say attempting to absolutely cripple the Russian economy and cutting Russia off logistically from the rest of the world is appeasement. People really need to stop with the Hitler/Munich comparison because it's weak.

Short of having a war with Russia, over Ukraine, there's not much else we can do, if you want to be aggressive. If people want us to start lobbing nukes around for Ukraine, then that's fine. Personally, I don't want that, I don't think it makes much sense, when we can try and offer Putin an off ramp.

 

I think that he will be brought down eventually, but until the police or other security forces turn, it's pretty much impossible for the general public to do that. These are people with families and children, who very understandably do not fancy five years in the slammer or worse for organising an anti-government protest. However, once people start losing their jobs and hyper inflation bites (I give this 3-6 months), the scenario of a popular uprising becomes much more likely.

 

That’s what I was implying , it needs to be the Russian People and Belorussian to bring about Regime change or change policy .
The Romanian people under great threat did this as the Army refused to fire upon them and eventually overthrew him .
Sanctions are the biggest weapon we have in this scenario and that only works if the people turn against the regime .
Nuclear is/ should not be an option in any circumstances whatsoever from western/ Democracies .

 

Not to mention the powerful oligarchs that will soon tire of getting hammered financially and will end up seeing him as a complete liability.Accept the inevitible for now then let the crippling sanctions take effect' i know it sticks in the throat but its the least damaging scenario i think..

 

Issue is that as William Burns, current CIA Director, has said that the CIA have found it difficult to find anyone, from ordinary Russians to the elites surrounding Putin, that don't see NATO enlargement as a a threat to Russia. Clearly, there are anti war protestors in various Russian cities, but there always is in every war. I think you'd be surprised how much support Putin actually has over this. Also, sanctions seldom work as anticipated. Historically they've only really forced people to double down.

We can't rely on Russians overthrowing their govt. The last time they did that, they got the USSR, and in the end, they weren't happy with that either. A lot of Russians, believe it or not, like Putin. This has been verified time and again through various international independent polls. I think it's also dangerous for international leaders to talk of regime change.

The Americans can offer Putin an off ramp. It won't be nice, but it might end the conflict.

 

Not sure about this one mate?

 

I did edit it to a lot of Russians. He's not got a monopoly, but he's got a lot of supporters. Unfortunately.

 

Just a question, and I genuinely don't know the answer but do you think they like him because in the past 20 to 30 years they have greatly benefited from the fruits of capitalism, including foreign holidays, decent cars etc. The opposite of everything they had to suffer during the Soviet era, and once these sanctions hit hard do you think they will feel he is protecting them? Or do you think his supporters will still think the price is worth it for the greater good of Russia and its future generations?

 

He's got some popular Russian support because he controls the entire media and internet output, anyone dissenting is arrested, he has shut radio and TV outlets to prevent them from telling the truth.
Today he has announced 15 years jail terms for dissenters.
The Russian population has a completely different viewpoint and have been fed the lie repeatedly that Ukraine is a Nazi state, threatening the security of Russia, and NATO is a huge threat also and is rapidly expanding Eastward.
It's just a small military operation etc
It's all cobblers of course, but 99% of Russians are being brainwashed into thinking it's the truth.
Putin is their saviour

If only the West could employ the same tactics and show the everyday Russian citizen the murderous onslaught against Ukrainian men, women and children-for absolutely no other reason than the paranoic state of a murderous president and his old guard who are mired in 50 year old mindsets.

Ivan the Terrible

Putin the Slaughterer (I will refer to him as this from now on)

Both of the same mould

 

yep - I don’t think it’s too dissimilar to Brexit in terms of split and demographics although @Merde Tete will know best

 

The Duma have agreed the banning of "fake news" that could lead journalists being jailed for 15 years. While independent news outlets have all been closed.

It's little wonder people "like" him when the state control what is said to people and anyone who stands against the state, even if the softest form, say a child laying a flower outside an embassy in solidarity, is detained or worse.

 

agree with that and just to add all this was going on whilst our lovely Tory Party were taking donations until very recently from these criminals .

 

Old Russian joke

An Englishman dies and goes to hell. He’s greeted by the Devil who gives him a tour. The place is full of boiling cauldrons each guarded by a demon. The Devil explains there’s a different cauldron for each nationality. As they pass the American one, some poor soul tries to clamber out only for the demon push him back in, with his trident. They pass the French and German cauldrons and then come to one that isn’t guarded by a demon. The Englishman asks why. “Ah, that’s the Russian Cauldron,” replies the Devil. “No need for a guard. If anyone tries to escape the others drag him back in.”

 

My point is that we either need to face up to Putin’s nuclear threats or he can always use them to make the West back down.