If Ukranian civilians are suffering this winter imagine....

...what Russian conscripts dug in for the winter with inadequate equipment, fuel, food and clothing and unreliable supply lines will experience. 80 years on from the winter war with Finland where many of their granddads died.

Putin is clearly incapapble of learning from history.

“So many Russians – where will we bury them all ?” – Attributed to an anonymous Finnish Soldier....

 

That's a sad state of affairs, but it's hard to feel much sympathy for the Russians. Not for that pile of frozen corpses in the photo from 80 years ago, and not today. Even the "ordinary" Russians must know at this stage what's really happening, and according to a recent fairly reliable gallup (sorry, can't find a link right now) most of them actually support the war.

As a human being it's a terrible thing to say, but I hope that the Russians meet a similar fate in Ukraine this winter. Because if they don't, the Ukrainian body count will be many times higher.

One more thing about that photo and the quote. "Where will WE bury them all?" The Finns had to bury the fallen Soviets as well because even back then the Soviets/Russians didn't give a f*ck even about their own soldiers. The Finns at least tried to bring back back the bodies of the fallen back to their home towns, but sadly some were left behind the border... And in recent years Russians have done their best to desecrate these graves. Such a civilised nation.

 

Tolstoy was a good egg.

 

“If “ Ukrainian civilians are suffering, so you think that’s in doubt !!

 

They certainly are without doubt. It's just an old expression. i.e. ... 'If x, is .then what about y?' The ' if' is not expressing doubts. Not good grammar I know but I have heard it many times ...

....If you think that looks bad you should see the other guy!!

Strange thing to pick up on from the OP. You seem to like nit-picking my posts.

 

I had forgotten yor 'link' with the Winter war. The parallels of Stalins Red army vs Finland and Putin's army attacking Ukraine are striking. Both cases came from a perceived threat from a bordering country (without any basis in fact). The Finns against all odds initially gave the Russians a good kicking after the brutality of bombing Helsinki and then claiming they were actually dropping humanitarian aid to help the starving population!! The propoganda war sound all too familar too.. "The Soviet soldier had no choice. If he refused to fight, he would be shot. If he tried to sneak through the forest, he would freeze to death. And surrender was no option for him; Soviet propaganda had told him how the Finns would torture prisoners to death." The problem however was that the Finns were mostly too weak to fully exploit their success and ultimately were defeated by overwhelming forces.

I may be wrong but I think the term Moltov cocktail was coined by the resistance who made the crude incendiary devices and named them 'Molotov cocktails' to go with 'Molotov's bread baskets 'which they had sarcastically named the bombs. The original invasion was started without an actual declaration of war (I suppose just like , Putin and his 'Special Military Operation')

It seems 80 years on and the Russian bear is still incapable of any form of civilised behaviour. They really were and still are are a Pariah State.

 

If we’re going to sympathise with the aggressors, what about the Germans at Stalingrad.?

 

Those conscripts have a choice they can surrender the civilians in cities and towns up and down Ukraine don't. I have no sympathy at all for the Russian soldiers be they conscripts, regular forces or wagner mercenaries they choose to follow a tyrant so if they freeze to death as a consequence so what!!

 

Think about our lads that are in Ukraine and surrounding boarders with lack of accessible kit

 

Who is sympathising? I certainly am not (except I am pretty sure that many of those conscripts only find out why they are really at the 'front' when they actually get there and realise they have been lied to so they hardly fit the description of 'aggressors ') Unfortunately, the only resolution is likely to come from the unneccesary death of tens of thousands of soldiers ( mostly from the invading army).

The early scenes of the film ' Enemy at the Gates' is a fairly accurate description of what faced the conscripted Russian 'cannon fodder' being shipped in to defend Stalingrad ...ill equipped and ordered by their superior to suicidely charge enemy positions in the face of heavy machine gun fire and any attempt to retreat resulted in then being mown down by their own side.
The Germans, deserved very little sympathy given the brutality and the mindset instilled on them that they were the master-race and the Slavs and Russian people's were sub-human.

Initially the current invading Russians in Ukraaine have been told they are fighting Nazis, and protecting Mother Russia from the evil NATO and, the West led by the Americans. No excuse but ordinary people, after years of propaganda often carry out brutal and inhumane acts after prolonged exposure to war. They are victims, like the Ukranians, albeit not entirely innocent, of one man's lust for power and a corrupt regime who don't consider their own people as being of any value.

 

A little simplistic given what would happen to them if they mutinied or refused to serve. ( I wonder what wouls happen to Mick Lynch if he called a rail strike in Russia when they are conducting their 'Special Military Operation'

In any case, many conscripts are trying to do what you suggest and the Ukranianseven have a hotline they can contact to arrange a surrender but they are in constant fear as the Russians are closely monitoring them. Also the threat to their families back in Russia is a real one for those who do not follow the Party line.

 

I think you are confused about what a Tyrant is if you think people have the freedom to choose under one.

 

My father never talked about his past. When I was a kid he did tell me where he came from though...

“A place that doesn’t exist, where everyone is dead.”

He was 14 when the Russians arrived at his village in September 1939. A few months later, everyone was rounded up in the early hours of a winter night. Whole families were charged with being ‘enemies of the people,’ marched 20km to the nearest station and herded into cattle wagons that headed east for Siberia. No one came back.

My father was the only one to escape that night. Many years later I found a way back to the forest where his village once stood and took him there. An incredibly brave act on his part to go back to the land where last saw his mother, father, sister and brother. He told me what the Russians did but I’m not prepared to go into that on here.

His assessment of the Russians is the only one I listen to. Sadly, it seems just as relevant today.

“They were animals… mind you, not their fault… it was the way they were brought up.”

 

They were/are every bit as brutal as the Nazis (Oradour-sur-Glane?) . Whilst the German nation has 'evolved and 'moved on' it the Russians haven't. These sort of things make me sad and angry in equal measure. Will humans ever learn?

 

Sadly no!!!

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...conflict-russia-will-not-accept-oil-price-cap

Not according to the latest polls. Support is down to 25% now, and most pollsters agree that even that is likely to be an overestimate due to people being afraid to state their real opinions.

Certain EU states' treatment of regular Russians has been absolutely appalling, especially bearing in mind that the majority of people who travel regularly to Europe belong to the demographic that are most likely to oppose the war. Not only is it counterproductive in the way that it has turned many Russians against the collective "West" (even if they are vehemently anti-Putin and anti-war) but it is almost certainly illegal under international law to discriminate against people solely on the basis of their nationality.

 

Forgive my ignorance but what's been happening to these people? Genuine question because I've heard nothing and I think I'm quite well informed. I've certainly heard plenty about oligarchs losing their yachts... I know that in many parts of Europe, Russians have been disliked for many years, but that predates the war.

Also if you are talking about individual European countries, why name the EU? I doubt very much that the EU has a policy which dictates that states should victimise regular Russian citizens.

 

Certain Schengen states - Estonia, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland, are now refusing entry to regular Russian citizens on tourist visas, and in some cases have stated that they won't accept asylum claims from conscientious objectors avoiding the draft. Both of these moves are legally extremely dubious, and morally indefensible in my book. The official justification is that "everyone who wanted to leave has already left". But this doesn't take into account the fact that people might have elderly relatives, kids at vital points in their schooling, and a myriad of other reasons. My wife for example has ageing parents and a pregnant sister. Travelling back to Russia to see her family is now extremely complicated and expensive. Her sister would have undoubtedly left if she wasn't pregnant. Her parents are in their 70's and obviously can't just up and leave no matter what their views on the war. It's an absolute ****-show, and sets a very dangerous precedent.

 

Sorry to hear that mate, I hope things get a bit easier for your wife's family. It's always the innocent ordinary folks that suffer in these situations.

 

Been there, on a few occasions with not enough or wrong equipment, **** happens, you adapt an move on. The Russians will be suffering along with the Ukrainians, an estimated 80 to 90,000 mothers will be without sons this Christmas, and that's only one side of it, and for what.