views re NHS staffing...

Going back quite a few years....Henry's Leeds...Quite a few gathered there at about 4pm Fridays ...it was called ...ahem..."networking".

 

That kind of annoys me. You loved the NHS but the bottom line is you were effectively forced out as you clearly felt, ultimately, it would be detrimental to your health.
Private companies are bound by legislation to have a duty of care and address issues and work practises that are harmful to employees and customers and yet the Govt. who put those laws into practice, appear to be immune to sanctions where it is obvious employees and patients are being harmed.
If any business had been allowed for a situation to deteriorate, not over months but years, to the level it has where people are dying then legal action would have resulted.

 

I guess for Doctors going into private practice and consultancy there is a lot of money to be made - but I doubt even they are going into a 5 year medical degree just for that end goal either. I think for it attract people for just the money you'd need to be paying your average nurse well over 50k - thats average I mean. I think they probably need to increase benefits such as paying extra for different shift work to start with for nurses, my wife is HC and they get weekend and night enhancements that nurses don't - that isn't right and certainly contributes to people leaving and going to agency work, etc.

 

I haven’t worked as a nurse for some time, but it used to really piss me off hearing people referring to it as a vocation. Yes, people need certain…I’m struggling for the right word here, cos I don’t know whether qualities is the best one, but it takes something to want to be a nurse. Completely different to those who want to be a doctor, as prestige comes into that, as well as family pressure. I knew a lot of doctors over the years who were clearly doing a job they didn’t want to do, and in some cases were hopeless at, simply because their father was a doctor and it was expected of them or they were pushed into it. Unlike nursing, medicine can be a lucrative career. It’s why I don’t have a lot of time for junior doctors bleating about their pay, although I certainly agree their hours are way beyond dangerous.

But the idea that nurses are all a certain type just isn’t true any more, if it ever was. Maybe pre-1960s that may be true. It’s a job, but one which requires certain qualities (maybe that is the right word?), just as being a farmer, or an oil rig worker, or a schoolteacher and countless other jobs require certain (different) qualities. Just cos the qualities required for nursing include compassion, a desire to help sick people, lots of patience, etc, and probably because it used to be very wrapped up with the church, the word vocation gets bandied around. Most nurses will cringe at the word, and some will fly into a rage!

Whilst very few people would refuse more money, particularly in the current climate, money hasn’t ever really been a great driver for nurses. For one thing, it’s a job with a rigid wage structure, in the NHS at least, so you know where your salary is going to go as you move up a grade or clock the years up at a grade. I turned down opportunities to go for a higher grade, because I preferred being on the front line, rather than directing ambulances (okay, there was a LOT more involved than that, but it took you away from doing the parts of the job I most enjoyed!). Money has become an issue recently though, because of the 13 years of Tory rule and real term pay cuts.

But what really matters to nurses, when they are not getting screwed over with their salary, are conditions, including respect from the patients/relatives. That is as big an issue now as the pay increase they deserve. Like the paramedics, they are just not able to do their job properly, because of decisions taken by the government and Brexit. Nurses tend to work long hours and, trust me, 12 hours working on a triage desk of an A&E department poses far different stressors to 12 hours in an office. And I’m thinking of a triage desk 20 odd years ago, when a waiting time of 4 hours was cause for concern. I cannot begin to imagine what it’s like nowadays. Even back then, someone relieving you for 5 minutes so you could use the toilet or grab a drink was a godsend. So when nurses are getting to the end of their 12 hours and are then stuck there for several more hours it must be soul destroying, particularly as the time in between shifts suddenly becomes 3 hours less.

With the additional stressors of being short staffed, inadequately funded, trying to manage the lack of beds and inability to discharge vulnerable people who no longer, medically, need to be there, there’s much more than salary to be concerned about. And as for A&E, the pressure the staff must be under there is ridiculous, with ambulances queuing up for up to 36 hours outside and patients in the department for 4 days waiting to be admitted (A&E nurses don’t want to be ward nurses, but they’re having to be for some patients, whereas paramedics don’t want to be, and aren’t trained to be, nurses full stop, but that’s the role they are often stuck with at the moment).

A&E is unlike anywhere else in the hospital, and whereas staff all over the hospital can be subject to abuse, it was always far worse in A&E. Sometimes this can be understandable, even if unpleasant, as they are dealing with people (not everybody, as at any time of the day at least a third of the people in the waiting room shouldn’t be there) in an emergency situation. They are scared and stressed themselves, so this needs managing. Usually, once the stressful part is over the patients/relatives are quick to apologise. A lot of the abuse is totally uncalled for though, and when the waiting times are longer the abuse increases. I had a kitchen knife pulled on me, had to keep dodging a chair that was being swung at me and was physically threatened on several occasions. What annoys nurses more than anything is that they get nearly all the abuse and doctors get away with most of it! That especially wound me up on the days when the long waiting time was due to the doctors being useless/slow. To be constantly harassed by patients in the waiting area, knowing the doctors are the reason for the lengthy waiting time, and then hearing the “thank you doctor” as they walked through, whilst looking daggers at me was extremely irritating! But the level of abuse, added on to the stress of the busy workload, being unable to do the job properly, being understaffed and, recently, pay cuts and high cost of living makes me surprised that even more staff aren’t quitting.

it’s not just about the money though, so even if the nurses were awarded 19%, if the conditions don’t change, it won’t be enough. If the nurses were offered 6%, but were told freedom of movement was being restored, so that staffing levels in the NHS and, probably more importantly, the care sector, can be quickly increased, that the Tories will stop giving money to their mates and bring bedding levels back to where it was when they took over from Labour, that GP services will be improved, to relieve the pressure on the hospitals and that the government will maybe claw some money back from the rich and properly fund the NHS it would be seen as a major victory. And maybe a law that prohibits the use of the word vocation in the same sentence as nursing.

 

When I first started we used to get paid treble time for waiting list initiative clinics. People were falling over themselves to get those extra shifts 5pm until 7pm on an evening and 8am to 2pm on a Saturday. Then they knocked that on the head and couldn't run the clinics due to short staffing. All the new admin starters now are on 5 in 7 contracts with rostered Saturday shifts where necessary. They tried to make us all sign that contract but the union stepped in thankfully.

 

I think Rosco (Post #12) is right. There is an underlying motivation in someone applying to be a nurse doctor, healthcare worker than just the money.

But money and lots of it is needed to train and retain staff at all levels to reduce their workload. I don't know the exact figures but if people want a first class health service a tax rise is needed. The problem is it would need ring fencing so we can see that the money is actually going into the pay packets training programmes of the NHS. As far as I am aware that never happens and the money diasppears into the treasury with vague promises of more cash for the NHS /education/Transport infrastructure etc.
The second problem is that a sizeable media driven chunk of the population make comparisons with nurses and doctors vs the rest of the public sector. Yes there are many vital roles in Public and Service sectors that do deserve higher pay but comparisons are irrelevant and divisive in as much as the NHS is so greatly understaffed and underfunded it is going under. As with anything, if you want a decent product you have to pay for it.
Most people recognise this but the Govt obsessed with low taxation fail to.

Personal health and welbeing should be at the top of evryone's list of priorities since, without it, nothing else matters. If you have the means to have health, food, heat, clothes and a roof over your head for you and your family everything else is a bonus. I siad it earlier and I'll repeat..There are no pockets in shrouds.

 

I'm completely with you mate. I would love Labour to make a concerted and budgeted plan around Brexit, but I also understand why they aren't. They know as soon as they defer from a neutral Brexit stance then the Tories can use it to divide the vote. Unfortunately the Labour Party has to win back the support of the working class, little Englanders. It's far too risky to go that route at this stage.

Whether we like it or not, there's a massive amount of voters who are dense and just see the world from the front page of the Sun or Mail. I've still got mates who will categorically argue that Brexit is a good thing and who think that Labour is worse than this Tory rabble. These are working class people on 30k a year max.

Although I'm a Labour Party member, I understand that they aren't for everyone, but I will argue that the Tories aren't for anyone (Other than themselves) so I'm perfectly fine with people voting Green or Lib Dems etc and think thats a vote worth casting. I've actually voted LD previously.

 

My daughter has that type of admin contract - but many before her got contracts which exclude weekends, so she always gets rostered 2 from Friday 8-8, saturday 8-8, sunday 8-8, she asked her boss if once a month she could at least have Fri/sat or sat/sun off, she was told no, I told her to just start throwing sickies when she wanted a friday or saturday night out - as shes only 22, never getting a weekend is a bit crap, especially when others have it baked in to their contracts which means she's NEVER getting a friday or saturday night off.

 

I'm still bit confused as to why the word vocation 'pisses you off' . It seems to describe a major reason, albeit not the only one, why people are motivated to join the nursing profession. You seem to regard it as an insult which I do not understand unless you think the word somehow absolves the employers from paying proper rates and providing decent working conditions and progression. You do come across as angry and bitter in your post which, again I do not understand as the OP and the thread is fully supportive of nurses and the NHS.

Dictionary definition:
a strong feeling of suitability for a particular career or occupation.
"not all of us have a vocation to be nurses or doctors"
Similar:
calling

• a person's employment or main occupation, especially regarded as worthy and requiring dedication.

Perhaps, as you say, it does not apply to all but there must be some underlying common feeling that draws a person to what is, as you describe a demanding job.

 

Unfortunately it was the people who voted Lib Dem that started this problem when the Tories had to form a coalition to get in firstly, but I’m sure as hell anyone that did vote them never did so believing that could actually happen. Unfortunately the country just took leave of its senses due to Brexit and here we are now.

 

I'm coocoo. I voted Libdem in 2010.

 

The people who voted Lib Dem did not know they were enabling the Tories, as you rightly say, so it’s disingenuous to say to say we ‘started this problem’. Had we known what the outcome would be most of us certainly wouldn’t have voted for them and I haven’t voted for them since and never will.

 

Me neither. I was suckered by Nick Clegg wanting to support Steel workers and students.

 

Because it’s not a vocation, it’s a job. And yes, those politicians on the right will use this term and notion to take nurses for fools, believing that they will always get away with it because nurses would never strike. They don’t seem to understand that nursing, which was seen as a second family income in years gone by, is now often the job of the main family earner.

And I am angry, not so much bitter, but angry at our government, not you. For the contempt they have for both NHS staff and NHS users.

 

My concern now is that by supporting Keir Starmer in his leadership bid I once again seem to be getting something I didn’t vote for. I get that he would have to soften some of Corbyn’s policies and move more to the centre if we were to have any hope of Labour winning the next election and remaining in power. One wrong move now and Labour could blow it, so I also understand his keenness to avoid any controversy, although it is frustrating that he is having to pussyfoot around the disaster that is Brexit. I’m just wondering which side of the centre he’s going to end up at.

 

When I went into nursing in the mid 80s I knew it wasn’t a high paying job but I got 3 years training where I was paid to do what was essentially an apprenticeship, I qualified and walked straight into a decent job. Nowadays to get into the profession you need a degree and end up saddled with a five figure student loan debt, in real terms the pay is worse than it was when I qualified in 88, then I bought a house in Hillsborough for £38,000 - just short of 3 times my salary, similar house on the same street just sold for £155,000, newly qualified nurses don’t earn £50k+. I’m not surprised they’re finding it harder to recruit and by all accounts the working conditions don’t exactly encourage retention.

 

Yeah sorry badly phrased on my part. I didn’t mean intentionally enabled it.

 

I do not believe for one minute the vast majority of the public hold the NHS or NHS staff in comtempt. Sadly you appear to have become embittered. I would also dispute that "some nurses would fly into a rage if they heard that word(vocation) " as you previously wrote.
No one but you is confusing 'job' with 'vocation'.
You appear not to accept that the words 'vocation' and 'job', 'career' or 'occupation' are NOT mutually exclusive? Vocation describes the 'feeling' that draws many (not all) towards a career in nursing . I do not see how that can be taken by anyone, not even a Government as a 'get out of jail free' card to pay peanuts, nor does it in any way, as you claim, belittle the job. Nor does having a vocation equate to being prepared to be walked all over and treated with contempt as you seem to be saying. I repeat ....

"Vocation.....a strong feeling of suitability for a particular career or occupation.

Similar:
calling

• a person's employment or main occupation, especially regarded as worthy and requiring dedication."