A Dark Period in British Life

I think on balance JV was talking about lying and integrity in politics per se not just about Starmer himself. On the Starmer issue itself I dont think there is any evidence at all to suggest he is a decent, honourable politician with genuine convictions. People however still seem to like him and/or blindly support him simply because he's in the Labour party though which is a concern for me. People didn't see through Boris Johnson either cos he told a few jokes and had ruffled hair. Look where that led us. Believing someone is decent just because you would like them to be is naive at best. Believing Starmer is a great alternative when he lies, silences others, backtracks and says nothing about reversing austerity is just as naive as telling someone they are being foolish for voting for a non-Labour alternative to the Tories. When it comes to the election I will be voting for the party which I believe is most capable of turning round decades of nastiness but also which party seems genuine, honest and led by decent people. If I can bring myself to vote Labour I will, but if I don't vote Labour I'll have a clear conscience about it. I'll also be comfortable about it as the Tories will not be forming the next govt. They wont. Maybe it would be a good idea for Starmer to commit (without backtracking) to a serious form of PR at Labour conference... Fat chance though.

 

It isn't just a one-off post of his about Starmer though, it is one of many targeting him specifically.

 

Would require a referendum. Neither major party leader wants another one.

 

At the end of the day it is up to each individual person who they vote for, but if you vote Green etc knowing full well what the consequences are in doing that, you lose the right to complain about the Tories if they get in again in my opinion.

It's on every single one of you and has been for the past 13 years.

 

Pretty much like Gordon Browns battle cry....

Vote nick... get Dave

 

Yep, and it is and was true. I'd love to see the greens have a seat at the table, but we have to be realistic.

 

meanwhile - over the border in Cymru......

Senedd plan to increase numbers of members form 60 to 96.

re P.R.
The Report recommends that a closed list proportional representation system be used to elect the 96 Members. It recommends that the D’Hondt method be used to apportion seats between parties.

At present 20 members of the Senedd voted in by PR - other 40 by FPTP.
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tad messy tho' e.g. Ynys Mon has a Tory M.P. in Westminster but Plaid and Labour members in the Senedd.
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Peter Oborne is an old school right winger who has had his platform taken away since all the frontline media outlets don’t print or broadcast his drivel anymore.

The fact he’s now spouting on an openly left-wing online platform, criticising everyone as a liar on both sides of the house - except for Jeremy Corbyn - is lapped up by them.

Like folk such as Dan Wootton, Lawrence Fox etc, he will say whatever he likes to try to regain relevance.

Is there truth in what he’s saying? Yeah. Of course. I’m not defending everything Starmer has said.

But don’t fall into the trap of swallowing it all verbatim. Keir Starmer is absolutely nowhere near the standard of liar as most of the sitting government, and certainly not of Boris Johnson.

This article implies Johnson is getting a tough ride as he lied a lot but they weren’t all big lies… but Blair gets away with it, and he’s worse. Yeah ok; you don’t have to scratch the surface too hard to see the real agenda.

The far left Cobynista’s love attacking Starmer so will gladly take the right wing ramblings that do that job for them and give it an airing - but in doing so they essentially cut off their noses to spite their face. Painting Starmer as a villain to prevent him getting into office, and holding up Jeremy Corbyn as a beacon of righteousness and the best prime minister we never had. As though Corbyn himself never lied when leading - the biggest anti-Europe campaigner in the Labour Party, vocal for many years in that regard, yet officially supported the stay campaign… he’s massively anti-nuclear, clearly against trident, but when pressed wouldn’t confirm he wouldn’t ’press the button’ if the need arose if he was in power. He also lied about never having been in higher education. He lied about a train being full when it wasn’t to prove a point he had no right to make. He lied about polling results and party membership numbers.

Those bashing Starmer seem to forget that. They also seem to overlook the need to adjust policy based on the changing outlook. I’m no Starmer fan and I agree he’s playing the game with the system to get power - but if he didn’t, then he wouldn’t. I don’t think that makes him a pathological liar like some of those in power now. And I certainly don’t think he’s as dangerous as them.

In our archaic system, which won’t change, we’ve got a choice of a prime minister who, in green lighting further oilfields, trying to abolish inheritance tax and reduce capital gains tax, amongst plenty of other examples is blatantly making policy to serve himself and his richest paymasters - or Keir Starmer, who has clearly backtracked from some policy pledges and so can be seen to have lied - but even still, has a fundamentally much fairer outlook. Most things in life aren’t black and white but the choice of prime minister in a general election is. There can only ever be two possibilities in the current system.

Make sure it’s the right one folks. Even if accepting that Starmer is just the ‘less bad’ choice - then do so.

Wherever you live, vote for who will beat the Tory. Yes that will get Starmer into Downing Street. No that isn’t probably a perfect solution. Vote Lib Dem if they’re are the closest to ousting the Tory. Vote SNP, vote Plaid Cymru. In most places, though, and certainly the majority of people reading this forum you’d imagine, vote Labour.

The consequences of not doing so don’t bear thinking about. You might want more radical change than Labour offer currently. You might want to reform the voting system. You might detest the fact the Labour have taken centre ground and have moved away from the further left stance Corbyn had. Fine. None of the things you want will happen with a Tory majority though.

A Labour government might not be the great change we need, it might do little initially to improve the prospects of all. But it won’t be as transparently nasty, self serving and elitist. That has to at least be a start.

 

So including Churchill then?

 

Some great social reforms for sure, but can you say there wasn't the usual political chicanery going on in the background?

 

The problem with Starmer (as we see on here) is that at best "he's not the Tories". That's a pretty low bar of entry and sadly highlights how low expectations are.

Ill vote Green as a) I don't like Rachel Reeves and b) voting Green won't effect her being re-elected anyway. c) They have better policies right now. If it was close I'd likely hold my nose and vote 'New' Labour.

 

You make some good points and argue things well. I agree to a point about Corbyn as well. My take is mainly that he was a crap leader. He couldn't lead, couldn't compromise and sounded insincere when he attempted to (like on Europe). If he lied about key issues then he's also a twa.t. (although the train one is a petty example I think). Politicians should not lie deliberately about central planks of their belief system (if they have one) and should not deliberately lie to voters and party members to get elected. Johnson did that. Starmer has done that without question. The guy IS a liar. He also shuts down debate within Labour and expels or deselects honourable Labour people from positions on committee or in seats. This is anti-democratic, stalinesque strategy from a leader of a democratic party. The guy is a nasty piece of work. So, you may be correct in saying that a Labour Government will simply by default be better than the Tories and will be a 'start' but you may also be completely wrong, naive and misguided in assuming so just as many people on here tell me I'm naive in thinking about not voting Labour. At the moment Labour stand for nothing and are led by a liar who ejects people who have views different to him. We'll see.

 

Completely agree. But it doesn't change the fact that Britain was a much better, more equitable place to live under his stewardship than it is today. That doesn't mean I'd want him back. But I certainly want rid of the current incarnation of the Tories asap.

 

I'm not sure where this idea comes from, but the obsession with referendum is a new thing. We've only had 3-4 *ever*.

If a political party won an election with PR in its manifesto, it should be able to implement it without asking "are you sure?". Although I could see a referendum where the specific options where on the ballot sheet - so something like "In the next and future general elections, voting will be through a form of PR. Which method of voting should be used: D'Hondt, STV, Sainte-Lague, etc." - but then again, two of them sound like foreign things so STV would win...

 

the last time you called starmer out @Gordon Ottershaw wrote you a very good reply. You ignored it as did your compatriot at arms. You may be right, you maybe wrong but just shouting the same thing loses it edge after a while.

 

Whilst Starmer may have gone back on pledges. Anyone would think they were made recently. And not prior or during the very early onset of covid (in 2020 in the leadership contest )and the eventual financial burden on the coffers. Some of those pledges had to be altered. It's financial suicide otherwise.
I'm not his biggest ally. But I'm not putting him in the same mould as Boris either. That's stark raving bonkers.

 

In what way is it financially suicidal to say abandon this pledge?

https://keirstarmer.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KS_Pledges_1_Economic.png

 

im against lying. You may not be. I don’t care if Johnson is lying or Starmer. I’m not going to pretend one is ok because they are ‘on my side’.

 

Or this one

https://keirstarmer.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KS_Pledges_4_Promote.png

 

or this one

https://keirstarmer.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KS_Pledges_6_Defend.png