Israel

There's plenty of footage of ordinary Palestinians invading the places after Hamas had been in and taking stuff back to Gaza.
When there were elections in Gaza, people voted Hamas into power. Obviously its difficult to calculate their genuine support now but It's just as disingenuous to pretend that they don't have plenty of support from ordinary Palestinians in Gaza, they obviously do - polls suggest 50/50 split in support.
BTW - Netanyahu's coalition won 64 of the 120 seats at the last election - so similar support 50/50.

Bottom line is you can't really collectively blame people in either place for the actions of their leaders, even if the polls suggested higher support then they do (which they don't), it doesn't mean people voted for Hamas to kill a load of people at a music festival or support it, not can you say the same in reverse about Israel.

 

Which is why I said normatively there is but empirically there isn't. Treaties and agreements, ultimately, can't be enforced. Neither can standards, rules or values. It's the central issue of international relations which policy makers have grappled with for who knows how long. There is a normative expectation, which is why states will argue their case for not complying to treaties, rather just saying "whatever". But international laws constitutive of institutions such as the UN, are typically laws imposed by the most powerful states in the system to benefit themselves and as part of the process of ordering. Which is why things get sticky when a rising power challenges and existing hegemon and they don't want (or indeed have to) play by someone else's rules.

But yeh, you're right, there are normative expectations, but these things often (tragically!) go out of the window in circumstances like this. Don't misunderstand me, I think what's happening is awful, but the West's invocation of international law always grates on me considering the amount of the times the U.S. and others don't pay attention to it.

 

This all day.

 

Well we can split the quote 50/50 then and we'll wait for him to remove the fence post from his arse and clear it up either way.

I'd point out however that his his first and only comment wasn't "No, Israel should follow international law", it was to agree with their tactics, then add in "but they should follow international law".

Weasel words, but hey, it's what he does.

 

Totally agree, plus I don’t think the b******* at Hamas can get enough blame, they launched that horribly barbaric attack knowing full well the revenge attacks they would bring down on the Palestinian population!

 

It seems perfectly clear to me. And no, you can't split it to give an entirely different meaning to suit your argument. But I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Just shows how unwelcoming we have been over history.

I understand not welcoming the Romans, Normans, Vikings, etc, but we have a poor record generally, as being "islanders". The truth is that we only started to progress as a nation with new blood. That remains the case to this day. There are nuances to that statement, but it is a general truth.

 

It was heartbreaking watching the footage of the guy that had lost his entire family when the Israelis bombed a house in the supposed safe zone. 30 people left the northern area and travelled south to stay in his mother's house which was then blown up.

I don't think either side is innocent in all this. I don't think either side will come out of it looking good given the acts they've inflicted on one another. But f'ck me, we're really seeing some of humanity's worst traits over the last few days and I don't think it's going to improve any time soon.

 

And if he doesn't, he's the anti Semite Jeremy Corbyn mark 2, rock/hard place anyone?

 

There is no safe zone in war. When bullets are fired and rockets are launched people get killed.

 

sleepy joe wont be well liked now

 

Hi casual tyke. Hope you're well

 

He never was. He was against Trump though so a cabbage would have won.

 

The only invaders we've ever welcomed were the Dutch during the glorious revolution. Only we aren't allowed to call it an invasion because some people don't like it.

 

Two By-elections in UK and Rishi turns up in Israel getting wall to wall media coverage , that’s a surprise!!

 

Will have alienated a large chunk of the muslim population there, not a good move with an election looming...

 

Fixing up contracts for his mates when they're out of office.

 

UK stands with Israel apparently.
Not in my name mate.

 

Hasn't stamer more or less said the same? Who we voting now lib dems?

 

No, he should explain his position more carefully (he is a lawyer) and he should condemn Israeli treatment of Gazans as not in line with international law. The UN has stated as much. Starmer yet again is seeing how the establishment wind is blowing and aligned himself to that. Its quite easy to condemn Israeli actions without being anti-Semitic but Starmer is more bothered about fitting in with the prevailing 'pro-Israeli government' attitude than he is with condemning atrocities and, also, more content in alienating many Muslim Labour people from the party. Nothing wrong with saying good things about Starmer if he says/does good things (I praised his speech last week) but I wish the Starmer apologists on here would take a step back and be genuine enough to say he's wrong sometimes. Just cos he's Labour doesn't mean the sun shines out of his arse. He's wrong or misguided or misinformed or ignorant on this.