Www3. Are we all going to be here for Christmas then or has Putin got other ideas?

Yes. I would recommend it too! Proper deep dive and you hear from all sides of the various quarrels over the years.

I honestly didn’t realise how close we were to WW3 on more than one occasion (before my time I hasten to add). Back then there were cool heads in important positions, or at least cool heads who had the ear of people in important positions. My worry is Trump, Putin, Zelensky and Netanyahu are all on a different level of bonkers.

 

Nato hasn't moved east in 20 years...as it stood, Russia had two large non NATO, non EU buffer states, Belarus & Ukraine between it and the West, by his invasions of Donbas and Crimea in 2014 and the subsequent full invasion of Ukraine in 2022 Putin has been attempting to move west and put himself right on NATO's Polish border.

 

Russia's change of protocol has f all to do with the Daily Mail wanting clicks..it's a threat by Putin.

 

I understand that but wasn't it Bush who gave the go ahead for Ukraine to actually join? And its slowly materialising ?

Honestly I'm not trying to play devils advocate, mate. Genuinely curious. I was fully behind Israel after Oct 7 because I had no idea about their history until I've started reading a lot more. Its crazy how complex it is especially when you start of as an ignorant fool like me !

 

It was a Russian in 1983.

https://www.historyextra.com/period/cold-war/stanislav-petrov-soviet-soldier-saved-the-world/

 

Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia joined NATO in March 2004 (along with Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia and Slovenia).
Albania and Croatia in 2009.
Montenegro in 2017
North Macedonia in 2020.
Finland and Sweden since the invasion of Ukraine.

And the Russian border has been less than 60 miles from Alaska since NATO was formed.

It appears that behaving like a big threatening neighbour is driving smaller countries to join a mutual defence organization. Who knew that would happen?

Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons after signing a treaty with Russia (The "Big Treaty" of 1997) that promised to recognize the inviolability of the existing borders and recognize territorial integrity. Russia dragged it feet when it came to determining the location of the border. Then invaded. Twice.

 

So what's the general consensus. Is it as you were? More column inches and news bulletins.

 

Ever heard of the Cuban Missile Crisis?

If you were around in the mid to late 30s you'd have been advocating for letting Hitler steamroller through eastern Europe, you absolute turnip.

 

No you're wrong the one who has put us in danger is Putin and his arms suppliers in China North Korea and Iran aided by his apologists Trump, Orban and Fico plus the appeaser Scholz. The West should have told him right from the start that if he went into Ukraine then the weight of NATO would bear down on him. Did the world learn nothing from History when you show weakness to the likes of Putin Hitler etc they take full advantage when you show strength they wither the sooner you show strength the sooner they are defeated. We've hamstring Ukraine by stopping them using the arms we've supplied to their full capacity and that as cost thousands of Ukrainian lives. it's about time we took the gloves of and gave the Russians a taste of the medicine they've been forcing down Ukrainian throats for a 1000 days.

 

Fooking typical just when the redz were starting to put it together.

 

No worries TtTF,....No one as far as I know has ever formally invited Ukraine to join NATO....but this issue dates back to the 1990's when Ukraine still had nuclear weapons and Russia was looking like becoming a democracy. Ukraine agreed to give up its nuclear weapons in exchange for guarantees of its security signed by Russia and the US. They gave the last weapons up around the time Putin took power, and since then Putin has done whatever he can to undermine them.

 

If we drop out of playoff contention then he can press the big red button.

 

Somebody inside Russia needs to bump Putin off. There are many nuances in all this and its not easy but for culprits there's not a bigger one than mad Vlad. Trump may turn out to be madder but Putin is the elephant in the china shop. Surely there is someone in Russia who could do something.....

 

Peston just made a bit of sense on the news. He reckons Biden giving Ukraine permission to use these weapons in Russia is an attempt to strengthen Zelenskyys bargaining power when peace talks inevitably take place next year.

 

Aye, by selling Ukraine down the river.

 

And his replacement will be a night in shining armour withdrawing all troops from Ukraine and making peace with the rest of the world?

Unlikely.

 

One never knows. If someone bumped Trump off would the replacement be madder or saner? If Netanyahu gets topped do things improve. Dunno. There MUST, surely, be some sensible heads in Russia.... At the moment they all jump it seems but who knows

 

It may also be buying time for Ukraine's own build missiles to come available in numbers, they already have a cruise missile with a 200+ mile range...Next year they'll have a 650 mile range ballistic missile coming on stream, along with more F16's . Australia are just in the process of delivering 55 Abrams tanks...the idea is to push the US to release more of the 1000's of Abrams they have in stock.

 

Well said mate, eg Cuban crisis,didn't want Russian missiles on Cuba did they...?
Putin is defending Russia..from potential nato bases in Ukraine..just my opinion.