Hillsborough disaster report published

As a home and away reds supporter in the 80s ..... the reports conclusions come as no suprise to me .... South Yorkshires finest are finally named and shamed ....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/sep/12/hillsborough-disaster-report-panel-released-live

 

Today’s report is black and white. The Liverpool fans “were not the cause of the disaster”. The Panel has quite simply found “no evidence” in support of allegations of “exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans ”no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium” and “no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying.”

There you go.

 

I struggle with this.

........and have done for a while.

We played Wedenesday at Hillsborough twice in quick succession in the mid-late 80s; a cup match and a league game. I went to both and had issues at the ground. I think it was the cup game my Uncle and I presented our Leppings Lane end tickets at the turnstile, made our way through the open bit before the gangway only to be told it was full, we'd have to go back and swap our tickets for the seating above. Loads of us going backwards whilst people were still coming in, I remember my Uncles voice like it was yesterday "there'll be carnage here one day". The Police possibly, the stewards, the club ........ each to blame in their own way for the general chaos and disorganisation. We saw the game and the rest as they say is history.

BUT !

I was privileged every year from 1981 to 1994 to get tickets for every major football final and semi at Wembley, Villa Park etc ..... Charity Shield, FA Cup, League Cup - never missed one for many a year. And Liverpool were, and remain, one of my favourite "big clubs" so I'm not anti-scouse when I say this but they were without doubt in my experience the very essence of the scally persona they are often portrayed as. Of all the big clubs at the time I can say Man U were the most unfriendly, aloof and often violent but Liverpool fans were everything that the report states they weren't - factors alluded to in Jays post above. I found them friendly, cheeky, noisy ..... all the positive sides we hear about their famous fans, but I also found them angry, drunk a lot, DEFINITELY ticket-less on large numbers of occasions and in large numbers. You could guarantee BEYOND doubt they would enter the ground late with many male fans jumping the turnstiles. Me, my Dad and his mates had a standard Wembley day-out catchphrase "Anyone gorra sper ticket ?". And my memory is good ! These weren't one-offs and as I say each set of fans had their traits - these were Liverpool's. The nearest I saw at all to their overall general lawlessness on matchday was Everton fans - they made many finals in the 80s. Coincidence ?

As I say, I struggle with this, I really do.

 

Re: I struggle with this.

It was what Liverpool fans did all over Europe, rob the foreign clothes (Lacoste etc and start the casual movement) get hammered and jump turnstiles to get into games ticketless. After following England abroad for 10-12 years l found Liverpool alongside Millwall were the best kids for getting in ticketless and making a profit from the away trips. Witnessed with my own eyes them doing this act and also robbing various establishments, Bars, Clothes shops etc. I also stood in the Liverpool end for the 1987 League Cup final and saw first hand their supporters. So like you l struggle with the same. If the report wants to come out and say no-one were drunk and ticketless then who are we to argue. At least they can now put this to bed and let the dead rest in peace.

 

Re: I struggle with this.

They've used video cameras to count the number of people in the ground. Ticketless fans was not a factor in the Hillsborough disaster. I don't know how they can make that any clearer.

 

Re: I struggle with this.

I ain't going on and on about the disaster, people have their opinions on it. I fail to see how a grainy CCTV camera back in 1989 could account for all the people inside the ground, l believe they simply didnt have the technology back then or near enough camera's in the ground. But if they say they knew exactly how many there were inside then so be it, l've seen some of the images in the evidence with regards to this and l find it difficult to come to a conclusion.

 

Re: I struggle with this.

Having been in the lepping Lane end a number of times around that time .... the problem of crushing was the penning in ... once you are in the middle pen, it was very difficult to move to the (less crowded) side .... as I recall, the majority of turnstiles were opposite the middle pen, and you had to go through the "tunnel" to get there ..... as most people follow the "path of least resistance" ... the tunnel/middle pen is where you ended up...... so if the lepping lane capacity was 10K, but 5K were penned into the middle 25%, then this area is overcrowded, but overall the capacity is NOT breached ..... so down to poor crowd management IMHO

 

Re: I struggle with this.

I completely agree with you. I've seen footage from the CCTV cameras and I fail to see how they can count how many fans entered the ground without tickets. I'd say its virtually impossible to give a conclusive figure on ticketless fans.

 

Re: I struggle with this.

I know of around 20 who didn't have tickets so it's anybodys guess how many there actually were

 

Re: I struggle with this.

They didn't count how many fans entered the ground without tickets. They used CCTV footage and television footage to count exactly how many people in total were in the Leppings Lane end, both manually and with computer software. They then looked at how many tickets had been sold and compared this to how many people they counted and came to the conclusion that ticketless fans was not a factor.

They haven't taken this lightly. They haven't guessed. It was a serious investigation that concluded ticketless fans was not a factor.

 

Re: I struggle with this.

how many were trapped in the tunnel, they werent on screen

 

Re: I struggle with this.

It was the likes of Liverpools fans that led to the errecting of the fences in the first place. Awful that so many people died, but some blame must be apportioned to them.

 

Re: I struggle with this.

You should have a word with those who worked it out. They probably haven't thought of that. You could probably have saved them all this ballacks that's going on today.

Or maybe they did think of that and they worked it out. Maybe by using cameras at both the entrance to the tunnel and at the exit. And by counting the people going in and coming out. I wonder if they thought of that? I'm betting they won't have and today's findings are just a sham.

 

In a packed stand I would imagine there were plenty not visible to the camera. Can't believe that method had been used as categorical evidence.

 

Liverpool & Man Utd fans are still turning up in massive numbers ticketless and entering football grounds to this very day and nothing is being reported about it but its still happening. do we have to wait for people to be killed again before this is sorted out. so we can go over this again with people claiming it don't happen

 

I lived in Anfield in 89 ....... and had a friend who worked on the Anfield Main Stand .... I used to get in the the matches for free ...... I would go up to the ground and be given a season ticket stub (used early that day by a legit season ticket holder) ... I would enter the main stand .... back in 89 the ground was SOLD OUT, so I had NO seat, so I would go to the steward in the Main Stand/KOP gate and ask for a transfer .... and hey presto I'm in the match for free ..... Plankton Pete who was a skinny student @ Hull at the time, would come in with me when he visited ..... he did pay for the match in kind, by empying me with hard labour - trench digging etc etc
Even though the ground was SOLD OUT/FULL to capacity, there was still plenty of room on the KOP ..... as the Anfield ground the capacity had been reduced over the years .....

 

Re: I struggle with this.

that's the thing i still do not get...

there's camera evidence of a significant number of fans pushing their way through the turnstiles/gates into an already packed crowd, yet it isn't their fault in anyway?

i accept that the police and stewards made a massive mess of controlling the situation and the lies in the Sun were just that, but they can't get off scot free and blame the plod for everything that day...

 

Re: I struggle with this.

This comes back to what I was on about yesterday re: Stoke away in 1989.

We were held outside the ground and then the police opened an exit gate - as they did at Hillsborough - and we pushed in. Crowds do that. Thank God nobody got hurt. Police are there to give a duty of care to supporters. The supporters were effectively invited to enter Hillsborough through the gates the police opened. The police in the ground could not communicate to those outside what the situation was. It was a break down of control and management by the police.

 

Re: I struggle with this.

My dad took me and my 2 brothers to that game, The police stopped the coach to check for Alcohol and we ended up getting to the ground at about 10 to 3, there was 1 turnstile open to cater for all the fans arriving late due to police stopping every coach, there seemed to be about 2000 of us outside. We could hear the cheers from those in the ground while the goals were going in and we were 3-1 up when the police opened the gate, I can remember my dad just grabbing onto the 3 of us us for dear life while our feet lifted off the floor and we were carried into the ground, very scary for me and my brothers, we were all aged between 9 and 12 at the time, and my dad told us how he **** his pants at the thought of letting us go, we were bruised at the end of it because of him holding onto us!!! better that then be trampled on.

For that to happen at the Stoke game and then a couple of rounds later at Hillsborough tells me that there must have been some sort of police remit in place to open exit gates to let fans in if there had been delays or hold ups for away fans if there were still plenty outside the ground come kick off, it would be interesting to know if it happened anywhere else in the year or so prior to this terrible event..

 

Re: I struggle with this.

Barnsley vs Everton FA Cup late 89/90 ish ...... a number of work colleagues were Home and Away Everton supporters, and they went to the game ..... afterwards they complained bitterly of lack of open turn styles, heavy handed police crowd control - horses herding them towards the turn styles ... a common thread occurring me thinks .....
Oh and "barmy" locals spoiling for a fight ... it was the 80s after all!!!!