cos if he does he must think 'what a set of cranks'. This obviously excludes thereev as he will know I only post quality input and I am always available to him for advice (on a consultancy basis) on players. For example if only he had consulted thereev on Nouble it would have saved him a load of trouble. Once i had said 'he's shlte', that would have been that and we could all have moved on without two stints with Frank at Oakwell. hth keefy