Have you changed your mind ?

I critically assessed all information available to me at the time and decided we were better off in. You decided otherwise. We'll have to agree to disagree.

At least you thought critically about why you should vote one way or the other unlike a lot of Barnsley's (and the country's) residents...

 

So folk lack intellectual capacity if they disagree with you - or reassess their opinion based on the new evidence available? Aye ok. But you’re not pigheaded...

And as for sensationalist propaganda, I’d look at what was spouted on the leave side before tarring with that particular brush. Pot kettle as your mama used to say.

A real man will admit making an error where they feel they made one, and make changes to improve.

He would not dig his heels in the ground and stubbornly refuse to change his opinion. I do not accuse you of this, you clearly still feel out is right, fair enough, but you can’t expect all leave voters to stick by this if they now no longer feel the same way.

 

How much is the Brexit bill? Bearing in mind it took 50 years to pay back a total of £8.5 billion to USA and Canada in war loans. Whereas half of Germany's reparations to the UK for both world wars were written off...

 

While you were critically assessing the facts, can you answer the following please:

1). The ramifications of Brexit and GDPR on cross-border data flow and processing and the implications for the security of UK and EU citizens, data privacy and cross border trade. (I work with some seriously big brains in this area and they can't come to a consensus either).

2). What the service-based UK economy is going to rebalance itself into? And how the country can do that without losing a significant percent of the working population and tax intake?

And thats without evening thinking about the little problems of the borders (Ireland and Gibraltar), flights, and trade that have been done to death over the last 18 months without any actual workable solutions being mentioned.

 

A decent analysis of project fear.

 

Is your point that we must stay in because it's too complicated to think otherwise?

There seemed to be a lot of heart as well as head that went into making a decision as to how to vote.

And there's more to happiness in life than a percentage point swing on our trade deficit.

 

I would fall into that category.

 

Japan invests in its people and their productivity / enterprise etc.This hard faced badtard of a party sell off at the slightest bit of profit and a place on the board for themselves or family .
Imo as a country we have nothing to offer outside of the EU.

 

Voted for leaving. Don’t want to be a subject of an undemocratic superstate, that sounds more and more that it wants a stand-off with Russia.

 

Ever heard of Sisyphus? I'm not saying that it is too complicated to think otherwise. I'm saying that it is physically, logistically and economically impossible to achieve that disentanglement within the two year timeframe that A50 sets. I'm also saying that the government, which wasted 3 months of that throwing away their majority, are both incapable of agreeing on a "to be" position or even an "as is" reference position. Ministers are contradicting and briefing against each other and very few of them seem in a position to resolve the multiple problems just appearing within their own departments never mind the rest of the country. Our PM is contradicting herself almost on a daily basis and they seem to be ignoring both the terms of the negotiations (to arrange the exit) in an increasingly desperate bid to move to phase 2 on the trade deal.

You are right, money cannot buy you happiness. But it makes it a damn sight easier to buy the things that make you happy. A loss of 10% of GDP could equate to about a million jobs (I personally reckon it will be higher). That would come out with somewhere around 50-100,000 families made homeless as a direct result. Many of those relationships will break down and somewhere around 500-1,000 people will commit suicide as a direct result. Plenty of happiness for all of those affected.

When it comes to it, we are all the lower rungs of the political ladder. What difference does it make if our tax codes or other decisions that affect us are made in Barnsley, Westminster, Brussels or Ullan Baator? Our lot is to pay what we have to pay and do what we have to do. At least with the EU we elect our representatives and have as much say as anyone else in the entire EU. Not like our own House of Lords.

I hope I'm wrong, I really, really hope I'm wrong. But I fear more that I'm not.

 

The main reason why negotiations have been a shambles is because the EU Commission have given Barnier a mandate that falls short of what they could have given him, Article 50 allows for negotiation on not only the the three issues of Citizens rights, the Irish Border and the final divorce bill , it also allows for discussions on the future relationship, obviously these issues are inextricably linked, but Barnier cannot discuss them , with only 2 years allocated for termination of membership it would make sense for all things to be discussed as often as possible , many voices in Europe have said this and criticised the EU for not cracking on, the Irish in particular were critical of the Commission dragging it's feet.

 

[QUOTE="Scoff, post: 2042870, member:

And thats without evening thinking about the little problems of the borders (Ireland and Gibraltar), flights, and trade that have been done to death over the last 18 months without any actual workable solutions being mentioned.[/QUOTE]

There have been workable solutions mooted , Enda Kenny the previous Irish Taoiseach had been quite relaxed about the fact that a solution was available and said so on several occasions. The recent electronic border proposed by Davis was laughed at as magical thinking by EU officials just a couple of weeks ago and yet only this week they are proposing the same.

http://www.irishnews.com/news/brexi...-low-friction-brexit-border-solution-1197135/
Varadkars position over the border question is false, many discussions took place between British and Irish officials long before Varadkar was elected and satisfied the TD.
I'm sorry but I cant just find the link , but one Irish article suggested Varadkar is a novice who's had his ego massaged to up the ante for Brussels financial benefit, and also to appear tough in order to ward off a challenge to his position by Simon Coveney.
The article warned that Irish interests could well be sacrificed to suit a different EU agenda.

 

Mmm...well it seems to me that the EU have no interest in doing us any favours, given that we're buggering off.

And that they probably need to teach those in their own gang a lesson, to the effect that it cannot possibly pay to do what the UK has done.

Anyway, with regard to jobs, nobody knows what will happen. Most of the jobs recently created have seemingly been taken by imported workers anyway.

I think homelessness and suicide is laying it on a bit thick. By that token the level of unemployment in e.g. Spain and Greece (2 EU countries of course) would be causing national hara kiri sessions.

We had a referendum where, upon reflection, neither side knew much at all about what was liable to happen if we leave. Both sides were remarkably accurate in their inaccuracy.

And so it continues.

I do think however that it does matter who makes decisions on our behalf. Let's face it, few have ever engaged with the European election process. At least the populus knows who labour and tory are.

 

There have been workable solutions mooted , Enda Kenny the previous Irish Taoiseach had been quite relaxed about the fact that a solution was available and said so on several occasions. The recent electronic border proposed by Davis was laughed at as magical thinking by EU officials just a couple of weeks ago and yet only this week they are proposing the same.

http://www.irishnews.com/news/brexi...-low-friction-brexit-border-solution-1197135/
Varadkars position over the border question is false, many discussions took place between British and Irish officials long before Varadkar was elected and satisfied the TD.
I'm sorry but I cant just find the link , but one Irish article suggested Varadkar is a novice who's had his ego massaged to up the ante for Brussels financial benefit, and also to appear tough in order to ward off a challenge to his position by Simon Coveney.
The article warned that Irish interests could well be sacrificed to suit a different EU agenda.[/QUOTE]

There are 2 solutions excluding hard Brexit.

1) a United Ireland.
2) we remain in the SM and CU as proposed by most leavers before the Ref.

I’m happy with either to be fair.

 

There are 2 solutions excluding hard Brexit.

1) a United Ireland.
2) we remain in the SM and CU as proposed by most leavers before the Ref.

I’m happy with either to be fair.[/QUOTE]

Here's another one from a RTE report

https://www.rte.ie/news/business-analysis/2017/1118/920987-brexit/

 

No but they might if they can't actually read what is written and filter it through their own prejudices.

Where have I said I'm not obstinate, stubborn or indeed pig headed.

And indeed there's no criticism of remainers per-se. (other than they are obviously very very wrong.)

If you have the capacity you will see that my comments are not a criticism of remainers - but those who are now running scared and have changed their minds.

Funny - I've not noticed anything but an acceptance that the road ahead is difficult from the leave camp - and those remainers who have accepted the inevitable.

Unfortunately project fear carries on spouting the usual BS aided and abetted by the weak minded at the BBC and the Guardian.

Absolutely agree - but when they change their mind like that bloody fast show character and run for the hills at the first time of trouble - frankly I loose all respect. So far I've only seen more evidence that the vote was exactly the right thing - although the execution is a complete omni-shambles.

Just because in the short term there are some difficulties doens't make the long term decision wrong. So they should grow a spine - accept their conviction and get the hell on with making it work. rather than go crying to their mam.


No -

 

Here's another one from a RTE report

https://www.rte.ie/news/business-analysis/2017/1118/920987-brexit/[/QUOTE]

I agree with you that it *could* be a perfectly good solution to the problem - except it will grant UK-born people living in NI more rights than UK-born people living outside NI - including those born in NI. The only problem is getting something like that past the DUP without collapsing the government.

 

How long exactly is short-term? The uptick Nudger mentioned talks about starting to recover in five years. To me, that is medium term rather than short term, and taking 10 years+ to get back to where we are *now* is definitely long-term.

Between 1985 and 1993, the Tory government closed 11 pits in the Barnsley region. This effectively ended one industry in the area (ok, so we had other pits in the surrounding area until 2015). How long exactly did it take Barnsley to recover from those job losses? - 10 years? 20? Some of the old miners never worked again and many took lower paid work to keep their houses.

We are now looking at potentially doing something similar to 58 different industry sectors that will all be affected nationwide within a significantly shortly time span and with as much care for those affected as we saw firsthand in the late 80s and early 90s. Each industry will be affected differently - some worse than others (e.g. farming without CAP and low tariffs on food will be wiped out) - although we might have more of an idea if the government ever releases the impact assessments without removing all the really bad bits.

It is an omnishambles with this government running it, but the task is so massive that a coalition featuring Winston Churchill, Nelson Mandela, Gandhi and George Washington couldn't pull it off.

And all because you went crying to your mam because you didn't want to work together with our friends and colleagues across the continent.

 

Stop telling the truth Scoff you'll get accused of scaremongering.

 

Here's another one from a RTE report

https://www.rte.ie/news/business-analysis/2017/1118/920987-brexit/[/QUOTE]

Politically unpalatable