Just when you thought this outrageous person could not get any worse

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board' started by tyrone1, Mar 28, 2017.

  1. sadbrewer

    sadbrewer Well-Known Member

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    Why should there be any loss of regular contact ?
     
  2. sadbrewer

    sadbrewer Well-Known Member

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    It's not down to the electorate at all , you and I can vote in every European election available to us , but neither we nor any other ordinary person in Europe will ever have the opportunity to put a cross for or against Mr Tusk as the President of the European Council , the same goes for Mr. Juncker as President of the European Commission .
     
  3. sadbrewer

    sadbrewer Well-Known Member

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    Dennis Skinner and Mick Cash wanted out....so did Jeremy Corbyn , but can't say so .
     
  4. Sco

    Scoff Well-Known Member

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    At the moment, its 4 miles, and they can pop in at any time. If we migrate, it'll be at least 100x that. Makes it a little harder and a lot more expensive to visit. Of course there is Skype and phone calls, but I don't class those as regular contact.
     
  5. Cam

    Cambridge Red Well-Known Member

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    For MDG

    Sorry for the late reply, and thanks for taking the time to write that. Obviously you have thought about things and come to a decision. There's logic in some of what you say, and I can see that following that logic leads you to the inevitable conclusion you arrived at. The argument about the economies of the countries not being aligned is perfectly valid, I don't think even the most ardent remainer could argue that they aren't.
    I think where I would take issue with you is that your argument comes from a particular point of view & is very one sided. It takes no account at all of the benefits of the EU (admittedly I didn't ask you for that). Any institution/system will have pros & cons. Our own democratic system of first past the post has many flaws.

    I can see where having 1 vote in an election of 75 million gives me more representation than having 1 vote in 800 million, but for me that's not the biggest issue. I've not felt represented politically in the UK for a long time (more people voted against the tories than for and yet they are in power?). From a personal point of view I honestly trust the european politicians (Merkel etc.) to look after workers rights more than I do any UK govt. Certainly I'd rather have Merkel and Trusk over Gove & Farage et al. The Europeans seem to be more aligned to my views than the politicians here. I think between the tories and global businesss they will convinces that the only way to become more 'competitive' is to work longer for less. I also take issue with you about foreign judges making decisions. Thank God, they're the ones looking out for our human rights, our working rights. I'm not sure why you would have more faith in judges in this country? They are an elite who have very little in common with most people in this country, certainly not me. i guess it comes down to how you view 'foreigners' ... strange word that... what is a foreigner...someone from a different geographical location, or someone whose beliefs and values are different your own. you talk about 'forcing the govt. to provide more opportunities'. history tells us that in this country we don't have an appetite for civil unrest (we still have a monarchy!), I just don't see that happening. I'm not a fan of Corbyn, but there is someone who is trying to do something different and he has been lambasted from all sides of the establishment to the point where the labour party is no longer an effective viable opposition. I honestly can't see there being change

    When discussing the numbers game (political representation see above) I tend to look at it more from an economic/trade view point. It is just not logical that someone representing 75 million people could go out and strike a better trade deal with the likes of China, than someone who represents 800 million, its just common sense. I don't think that you can deny that the rest of the world will view us as being diminished in terms of power and influence. We are still a big economy, still an important voice but we are diminished.

    We are told that it is in the EU's interest to strike a free trade deal, but as far as I can make out she (May) has already said we won't be looking for that. anything else just logically has to be more cost to business and so less jobs, less prosperity. Also while it may be in some of the EU countries' interest to strike a deal favourable to us, it is certainly not for all of them. Their interest lies in making sure we don't get a good deal.

    Immigration (or the perception of it) as you quite rightly say is a danger to us all, and could easily lead us to in conflict with one another, but I'm not sure that withdrawing is the correct solution. As difficult as it may have been I would have liked to see us stay and try and change things from the inside. I do think momentum for change was gathering pace amongst other EU countries.

    [Just as an aside... no one has ever explained to me why free trade & the free movement of people have to go hand in hand? Is there an actual reason, other than a political will? ... Anyone know?].

    The EU has a multitude of problems, some very very large, but for me the benefits of being in far outweigh the benefits of coming out. at the very least, it seems to me we have taken an undeniably big gamble (no one knows what the outcome will be) for some percieved, potential gains gains that to me seem to be intangible .... 'we need to be able to make our own laws' ... what laws do we have from the EU that are so bad that we would take this gamble. 'we need control of our borders' .... all the tools are there already to control our borders ... we didn't need to take this gamble. We've had peace in the EU for 50+ years. now I can't categorically tell you that's because of the EU, but surely people being joined together with common values, laws, democracies, political institutions etc. are far less likely to go to war with each other? There seems to be many people [including Putin] who can't wait the EU as an institution to collapse, I don't understand why? its a gamble we don't need to take.

    So thanks again for taking the time to reply to my questions. you make some valid points. They're just not strong enough to convince me that we've done the right thing. Anyway, its happening now whether I like it or not. I guess time will tell. (I assume this is what it feels like when your grown up son comes home to tell you he's marrying the girl with the terrific t*ts, but the personality of a goldfish ... you just know/feel it will end in pain and tears, but what can you do ... he's in love :))
     
    MDG and scarf like this.
  6. Gloria Stitts

    Gloria Stitts Active Member

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    And they're the ones who make the laws, the European parliament just rubber stamps it, not democracy.
     
  7. Gloria Stitts

    Gloria Stitts Active Member

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    Exactly what should be done, Labour has no interest in improving Barnsley or any of it's towns, people move up in the world they vote Conservative, Labour wants people poor and on benefits and voting for them (and of course loads of immigrants who'll do the same).
     
  8. sadbrewer

    sadbrewer Well-Known Member

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    Sorry Scoff I misread it it , I thought you were saying that expected new rules would make travel more difficult , I hadn't realised you were considering moving away .
     
  9. Sco

    Scoff Well-Known Member

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    No worries. Its only a thought at the moment, and nothing can happen for at least 18 months due to juniors education, but at that point we will have a better idea of the road forward for the country and can see what opportunities present themselves.
     
  10. orsenkaht

    orsenkaht Well-Known Member

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    [
    [Just as an aside... no one has ever explained to me why free trade & the free movement of people have to go hand in hand? Is there an actual reason, other than a political will? ... Anyone know?
    [/QUOTE]

    My impression (and I may be wrong) is that this is in order to ensure that member states are trading with each other on equal terms so as to encourage a truly free market. So when (e.g.) Polish plumbers/electricians came to the UK in numbers it is said anecdotally that wage rates began to increase in Poland, encouraging them to return. That (if it is correct) is perhaps an example of how freedom of movement should work to everyone's benefit. But the perception of differing entitlements to state benefits for those entering the UK from the EU seems to have been one of the factors causing resentment - even if that perception has little factual basis based on official statistics.

    This for me flags up one (of many) of the concerns for exiting the EU. (And again my understanding may be incomplete.) New free trade deals with emerging economies will surely leave our own workers unable to compete if, as often is the case, the trading partners concerned are low wage economies. I'm not sure how that one will 'work for everybody!'
     
  11. Tek

    Tekkytyke Well-Known Member

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    Freedom of movement originally meant )or, at least, was intended to be ' free movement of labour' but somehow ' transmogrified' into free movement 'per se' The intention was to remove barriers so companies could recruit from anywhere in Europe to fill skills gaps. Unfortunately the rules allowed people and their dependents to migrate WITHOUT employment arranged in order to seek work and claim benefits after a 'pre-determined ' period. If this averaged out all would be well, but certain countries became 'hotspots' and led to an imbalance placing a bigger welfare burden on some states more than others. I recall some senior Brussels official admitting as much some time ago although cant remember exactly who.
    Unfortunately, freedom of movement to some is a 'right' without accompanying responsibilty (which is where the whole racism thing kicks in) but that has been done to death now.

    Incidentally, in answer to your question on a previous post. No., I wasn't celebrating yesterday. I view Brexit as nothing to celebrate.

    My analogy is 'I bought luxury car at great expense that I am still paying for. It had many great features and advantages when I chose it. Unfortunately it has turned out to be a 'pup' very expensive to run, has developed lots of problems and I have now decided, reluctantly that it has to go. I will have lost quite a lot in doing so and will have the unnecessary expense of replacing it with something that probably wont have all the features of the old one but at least, hopefully it will be more reliable.' Very simplistic I know but it illustrates that I voted out because of disatisfaction with the current situation and the fact I can't see the EU changing for the better (plus the rapidly deteriorating Eurozone) rather than any guaranteed rosy view of a future outside the EU.

    I know we are on opposite side of the argument, but at least I know I can get a reasoned response from you
     
  12. Sco

    Scoff Well-Known Member

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    And governments were free to remove the rights of people to stay within the first three months of arrival for reasons of social policy (EU Citizens Charter 2004). Ours chose not to limit the rights of migrants to stay.
     
  13. Brush

    Brush Well-Known Member

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    Like I said in an earlier post, the President and the Commission are appointed by the Council, the Council is elected by the Parliament and the Parliament is elected by us.

    In a way it's more democratic than our system, the Civil service which drafts all our Parliamentary Bills etc is staffed by no elected people whatsoever and the same goes for the upper House.

    The peoples of Europe by their total lack of interest in voting in European Elections (and we are amongst the worst for this) have sent a clear message for decades that we don't give a toss about what the European Union does so they just carry on on their own merry way. Why wouldn't they?
     
  14. sadbrewer

    sadbrewer Well-Known Member

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  15. orsenkaht

    orsenkaht Well-Known Member

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    Tekktyke, I think you're right that the EU appeared to show little interest in reforming it's excesses. For what it's worth, I don't think Blair, Brown or Cameron made sufficient effort to get it to reform. Neither Cameron nor the EU ever contemplated the remotest possibility of a 'leave' vote. What might have focused minds would have been an initial 'indicative' vote before the reform negotiations, with power for the government to take us out if in their view sufficient progress wasn't made on reform. All water under the bridge now though - we're going to have to suck it up, for better or worse!
     
  16. dartonpete

    dartonpete Well-Known Member

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    Good grief, Just that.
     
  17. MDG

    MDG Well-Known Member

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    CAMBRIDGE RED

    Nice to see a reasoned response from someone who voted remain rather than the ones who are just screaming racist, bigot and little englander at anyone who voted to leave. I respect real debate and that everyone has a right to a differing opinion and has the right to express their views. This also must must be done in a sensible grown up manner as per your reasons for voting to remain. I can't predict that everything is going to be perfect following our exit from the EU, I would be a fool to do so, I could also make the same argument for staying in the EU in many respects.

    I completely agree with our own government / democratic process being far from perfect. I actually don't even think there ever will be a perfect democratic model, the differing cultures, political beliefs, religious beliefs and personal values of people will always differ. I do however think that we as a nation have more chance of changing our domestic practices than ever changing those of a EU which I see only intent of creating this United States of Europe with full political union. Unless that EU superstate is controlled by a single government, they will never realise that vision, I wanted no part of being a federal state of Europe and surely it is easy to bow out now before further union takes place. I don't think we will be last country to leave the EU in the next few years mainly down to this issue.

    Recently the EU prevented the government from providing some additional protection to our ever depleting steel industry, probably at the expense eventually of thousands more steel workers. If anything our country needs to retain a strong manufacturing base and the skills that go with that. New programmes of training and education need to be put in place for this. I was pleased to hear the Prime Minister bring this point up in her Andrew Neil interview yester as something that needs to be addressed. We cannot become purely a service industry economy, especially post brexit where we need a very diverse economic strategy. (I hate that these daft terms like brexit lol).

    Actually you say that you believe the PM has already ruled out a free trade agreement. That is exactly the deal that they are looking to achieve, so not members of the single market due to the EU's fundamental four freedoms but definitely a free trade agreement which benefits both the UK and the EU. If they achieve that however remains to be seen but I would be pleasantly surprised if that was the case.

    One of your points about a negotiating trade deals and us being stronger from representing 800 million people rather than 75 million. I completely accept that would be one advantage, however there are also other contrasts to take into account which makes it easier to obtain better deals as a smaller entity. I say this because in over 10 years of negotiation, the EU failed to deliver a decent trade deal between the EU and the US, partly because neither wanted such mass trading areas getting the better deal and partly because the European parliament could never agree because of differing views between states etc. So entering into negotiations as the UK, our diplomats conducting the deals will speak speaking as one nation, knowing the will of our single government and also when it comes to the likes of the US, they know that although we are a major economic power we are a far less threat to their own exports than say the full block of EU countries would be. (Hard to explain but I'm sure you get my drift on that one).

    I think that when Cameron went to the EU with the referendum looming, the EU had the chance then to make real reforms which could easily have swung the vote to us remaining in the EU. They basically refused to really address our concerns as a nation and probably views shared with a large part of the other member states populations. If they had the appetite to reform, they would have made more concessions (although i do think Cameron maybe went in a bit half hearted thinking there was no chance of a leave vote). This is where I feel you will see where the string of the EU are being pulled in the future, it does seem to me it is purely the EU commissioners and their vision of this United States of Europe rather than the 800 million people living within the EU block. I'll be the first to commend them if they do make reform, but can't see it happening.

    In terms of living in peace, I think the EU has played a minor part in this to be honest. I think the main driver of 50+ years of peace has been the emergence of the US as the major super power in the world, I can't see that being out of the EU makes much difference, after all we have not left Europe nor are we saying cut all ties with Europe. We are also founder members of NATO and the United Nations which should be the vehicles used for helping to maintain peace. I would most certainly be against the formation of any European army controlled by Brussels. Do we really want our armed forces committed to maybe a conflict that our whole nation and even a majority of our own government are against. That could easily happen should they get their wish of this EU army.

    Thanks again for your reasoned and sensible response. Like I said at the top of this lengthy post there are too many people trying to brand others as idiots or racist bigots just because they have differing views, even noticeable on this board. I know my own reasons were because for what I think is best long term for the country as will you for voting remain and I fully respect that.

    PS... Had to laugh at your closing thoughts about a sons marriage! Great example. ;)
     
  18. Sco

    Scoff Well-Known Member

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    If the "EU army" were fighting in a war somewhere on the continent, then we would probably be involved anyway as members of NATO. My understanding is that the EU army would be peacekeepers and our armed forces are already heavily involved with that anyway (for now)
     
  19. Gloria Stitts

    Gloria Stitts Active Member

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    I'm from Rotherham, I know what the Labour Party are like, if you'll cover up child abuse you're capable of anything.
     
  20. dartonpete

    dartonpete Well-Known Member

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    I would hold the police more accountable there mate sorry.
     

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