Nearly 2 months ago since we won a game.......

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board' started by judith charmers, Dec 30, 2017.

  1. Lee

    Leeds_tyke Active Member

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    What did he do so wrong? Subs were made at 1-0 down.
     
  2. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Well-Known Member

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    At the time I thought taking Thiam off for Ugbo was a bad decision although his post match interview explained his reasons for the change. I still believe we have our own players who would be no worse than Ugbo.
     
  3. troff

    troff Well-Known Member

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    No, and er, no.

    He might have accepted the players. He might even have chosen them from a pool of ‘choices’. But he didn’t identify or select any one of these players. I don’t get what people don’t understand about this. He’s the head coach, as was LJ, the club decided we weren’t going to have a manager as such and that ‘the plan’ for player recruitment was to shop for cheap kids from the lower and non leagues who have been identified from a statistical spreadsheet to have promise of improvement. To polish them up and sell them on. Hecky has no real involvement in player identification. He sometimes, not always, has a say on which of one or two in a position is brought in perhaps, no more than that. Do you think he wanted a boat load of midfielders and no strikers in the summer?

    And as for spending most. The most misleading statistic of all time, used by you, Lord Bullshit of Hemsworth, and not too many others.

    The money brought in by the club in player transfers under Hecky’s tenure is more than four times what he has ‘spent’. In actual fact, Hecky, or anyone who is responsible for signings, has spent less than nothing. The net spend, which is much more reflective of how much a club is spending, is nothing, in fact millions and millions in the black.

    We may have paid more in transfer fees under Hecky than before. But there are some fundamental points to consider about that.

    1. We sold most of the better players we had, and had no squad, but quite a lot of money by our standards. Even with our ‘plan’ some of it had to be spent. We had to recruit almost a complete new side. No other head coach or manager has been in the position of having to sign so many players in one go, maybe Thordarson when we had nobody at all - but at least not at this level. Hecky would rather have kept all the players sold (or allowed to leave without being made a decent contract offer) than have signed the new players he has got in the main. Not too many improvements to my eye, they are a bunch of cheaper replacements, which due only to the numbers of them totalled a bigger spend than in the past. Hardly a splurge.

    2. The current manager of any club is almost always likely to spend more than predecessors as the money in the game and the transfer fees involved increase year on year. We havent been higher than this level for 20 years. The world record transfer fee in the summer of 1997 was less than £20million, Ronaldo Barca to Inter. The biggest fee paid by anyone in England that summer was £7million, though Shearer went for £15million the year before. Very few top tier clubs had that kind of money though. Just the richest, yet clubs in the second tier are spending that kind of money on one player these days.

    3. Adjusted for time and inflation, do you really think that even with all the signings made, Hecky will have spent more than Wilson mk1, Harry Bassett and (shudders) Nigel Spackman? The latter signed so many players (at the will of John Dennis to be fair), that when he was finally sacked for being *****, his replacement was Steve Parkin, (aka Keith Hill mk1, a cheap appointment from Rochdale who was out of his depth and given insufficient resource to compete), itv digital blah blah - but the club went bust and nearly disappeared altogether on the back of years of overspend by managers. Like I say, adjusted for time and inflation, do we think that Hecky signing a few players for less than a million pounds from division four, non league and Scotland is anything close to being an equivalent spend? He has spent significantly less than the money generated by the club in the second and third tiers. The same cannot be said for previous incumbents.

    There is absolutely no doubt that Hecky, like any coach or manager, has made errors in his position. Of course. He’s fallible, and not perfect at all. But to say he’s signed all the players and spent more money than anyone else is on the first part a blatant lie and the second part a biased skew of statistics to hide the truth that whilst most bosses have had to deal with losing one or maybe two of their best players yearly, he’s the only one that had to deal with losing them all within six months.
     
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  4. jud

    judith charmers Well-Known Member

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    Jesus.......I’m physically drained just reading that! This forum is about debate, views and opinions. You can hardly expect people to come on here saying ‘wow that 8-0 drubbing was awesome today’ or ‘it’s just like watching Brazil’, fact of the matter is that In the last 2 months we have won 0 games, conceded 14 goals and scored 4!! If you think that dosent bring cause for concern then you watch the wrong sport.....PH may not identify every player we sign but do you think he dosent have the final say on who actually signs on the dotted line??
     
  5. ScubaTyke

    ScubaTyke Active Member

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    Sometimes reading these forums is like watching someone hit a tennis ball repeatedly at a wall.....
     
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  6. Dja

    Django Well-Known Member

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    Not trying to have a go but you’re saying this forums about debate & opinions without actually debating & giving an opinion beyond making a statement of ‘Hecky should be under pressure as his tactics, subs, teams etc are terrible’.

    When asked why & Which ones you’ve not backed your statement up. I’d love to hear an explanation on what he’s doing wrong.

    For me we’re overachieving. I can back that up with losing 8 of our starting 11 within a year, the level our players have played at, the lack of experience & one of the divisions lowest budget.

    We should in my opinion be bottom of the league given the lack of ability & experience in the squad & the massive amount of talent we’ve lost from the team in the last year.

    We don’t have proven championship standard players in the squad apart from possibly Yiadom & he’s in all likelihood leaving next month.

    Gardner’s had differing loan spells at this level. Hammill’s had a good 5 months at this level 7 years ago & Bradshaw & MacDonald had ok first seasons at this level. No one else in the squad is proven at this level.

    I just can’t see why we should be higher in the league & no one seems to be able to explain why.

    I’ve no issue with anyone criticising the manager if they can come up with credible reasons what he’s doing wrong.

    When I think of shocking decisions / tactics then you know they’re bad as you can remember them from years ago e.g. Hill playing Wiseman over Stones, Flitcroft playing a flat midfield 4 with Dawson wide right & Mellis wide left for about 5 straight games & Johnson playing Winnall & Hourihane on the wing.

    I’m not getting that with Hecky.
     
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  7. jud

    judith charmers Well-Known Member

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    This could go on and on and on......

    As a football fan you expect to have lows following your team, when you go into your next game not having won in 10 you start getting jittery, annoyed, frustrated and you vent your feelings......most of the time these feelings are born from pure frustration.

    Have you in the last few month thought, why play that team? Where’s so and so in the line up? Why make that substitution? If you haven’t then a you happy for us to just plod along?

    We are a championship team who needs to be competitive at this level......(maintaining 4th bottom as a must), the owners will not want to throw money at a squad designed to get out of league 1.
     
  8. Dja

    Django Well-Known Member

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    There was one game in particular where Hecky went from 4-5-1 to 4-4-2 at half time which we ended up losing where I thought he got it wrong but more often than not I think his decisions make sense.

    He got some stick about playing Potts but from what I’d seen Moncur & Gardner (up to the last 2 games) were equally as bad & McGeehan was even worse.

    You can debate which 2 of Fryers, Yiadom & McCarthy should start but with Hedges out injured Fryers has given us a left footed option, scored a match winning goal from an in-swinging left footed free kick & on occasion put some good corners in on his left.

    I think ultimately the squads not up to it & the few players that have consistently performed well, Bradshaw, Williams, Jackson, Lindsay & Barnes (pre-Leeds) kept their places in the team where as the rest have been rotated to try & find a better team.

    Not having Isgrove from the start for most of the season & Hedges off the bench for the last month have been two massive losses for the squad as well as going into the season with just 3 first team strikers. It’s made it so much tougher to break teams down or change a game from the bench
     
  9. jud

    judith charmers Well-Known Member

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    I’ll agree with that, like a say frustrations can cloud your views....maybe the previous 2 seasons have gave us too much expectations, at the start of the season I said stopping up this season will probably be our biggest achievement based on the players we lost, what still confuses me is why we signed so many un-proven players when it was more important to sign quality over quantity, even PH said on the radio that he was fully aware some of his signings wouldn’t be up to the job.....’the plan’ is great but trying to be brave and experimental in this league will be found out sooner rather than later........we are seeing that at the moment!

    The takeover has come at the right time, let’s just hope PH or whoever is in charge of the buying has players lined up ready to go to battle in the coming months
     
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  10. troff

    troff Well-Known Member

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    It’s about debate. I’ve given plenty of reasons why I believe Hecky is doing a good job in the circumstances, and to why the spend that is alleged he has made is a false statistic.

    You obviously disagree - and so I ask, what has he done fundamentally wrong? What would you do differently?

    And you still don’t get the point. If Hecky is given a choice of three players, two who would be absolute garbage and one that is slightly cak, he can’t be blamed for that signing turning out to be slightly cak. He’s not been offered any that would have been better that I know of. Do you?
     
  11. Redstar

    Redstar Well-Known Member

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    Just exactly when have Hedges and LOL Moncur been “in form”?

    Not that you’ll listen but he hasn’t exactly chosen these players. He might well have said yes to them. There’s a world of difference and we’ve no idea what the alternatives were.
     
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  12. fit

    fitzytyke2 Well-Known Member

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    Think the question of "what could he gave done that's better?" Could be asked of every reds manager that's been sacked since we came up in 2006.

    Every one of them has had one of the smallest budgets in this league.

    We've tried cheap foreign, lower league experienced, bad boys that we might straighten out and now younger lower league with potential. All recipes garnished with loanees.

    In short, it's been very difficult for all of our managers to have any success at this level so as patient as some people are being with Hecky, I don't think the same can be said of the others.
     
  13. jud

    judith charmers Well-Known Member

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    Why won’t I listen.....what a patronizing bloke you are
     
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  14. jud

    judith charmers Well-Known Member

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    What will you all say if we don’t win any from our next 10??

    Will you all still keep going on about how we lost players 18 months ago??
     
  15. Redstar

    Redstar Well-Known Member

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    No but I’ll keep going on about the pathetic recruitment in the summer and someone’s insistence of following the plan to destruction
     
  16. jud

    judith charmers Well-Known Member

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    Good for you
     
  17. Redstar

    Redstar Well-Known Member

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    Are you listening then?
     
  18. East7

    East7 Member

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    IMO anyone now seeking to replace PH is being a little ignorant of the club’s recent history and how the present situation came to be. When PC bought the club he left its running to others, such as Rowing, Shephard and Barry. We would replace the manager around every 12-15 months, adopting whole new styles of play and recruitment in the process. The club was sort of run like it was still the 90s, in the hope that the right squad and manager could be somehow assembled that might produce a 1996 miracle. We stood still, the championship moved forward.

    Some agents, notably during the Flitcroft\Hill era took advantage of the club to offload poor players to us at significant costs. This led to stuff like the signing of Kennedy over Trippier, the Mido debacle, and forcing out one of the best goalkeepers outside of the PL and replacing him with a bloke the manager met on holiday.

    Relegation was a wake up call and the loss of revenue forced a new recruitment policy around younger, cheap, but first team players from lower levels that we could develop and sell on for profit. This would be excecuted by new blood on the board, Ben, with backroom support from Maurice. This is arguably when ‘the spreadsheet’ in so much as it exists, came into being. The appointment of LJ led to further focus on the sports science part of the game that Wilson had arguably begun. LJ and the club eventually assembled a squad of eager young players, focused on their own development and backed by a similarly youthful and eager backroom squad and importantly, extensive data analysis.

    Because of this rethink we have turned consistent net transfer profits to sustain the club, retained and consolidated second tier status, won the club’s first Wembley silverware since 1912 and played some brilliant football into the bargain. The club is now incredibly well run. So well run that the club has finally attracted the out-of-town investment we needed to thrive in the longer term. We cannot go back on this project to sack Hecky and replace him with, well who? Very few coaches around would understand or want to work under ‘the plan’, we would risk a descent back into the short term thinking that we’ve just escaped. I still reckon this squad might come good with some on field leadership, and pace and presence up top. We certainly cannot go back to sacking a manager every time we go on a poor run of form. Hecky therefore, has to stay and fight rather than be disposed of.

    Apologies for the essay length post, and happy new year to all.
     
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  19. Marlon

    Marlon Well-Known Member

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    That sums up the understanding I have on the situation/s past and present at oakwell . Good post and well put
     
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  20. JLWBigLil

    JLWBigLil Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree, sir.
     
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