OT - is Democracy the right way to go?

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board' started by Vesp77, Mar 15, 2019.

  1. Vesp77

    Vesp77 Well-Known Member

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    We'll never know, unless a test ever becomes a thing.

    I'm not asserting anything, merely offering an alternative system to the one we currently have.

    You can dress the idea up as morally wrong, discriminatory, fascist, or whatever other term you choose to use, but you cannot get away from the fact that it isn't. At all. And if you still think it is, then you don't understand the concept...
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  2. JDB

    JDB Active Member

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    The role of an MP is not clearly set out - as evidenced by the inconsistent approach of MPs during Brexit. Constituents and MPs need to fully understand the role so that they understand the impact their vote will have. Even your definition above is vague and open to interpretation.

    Regarding the coalition comments - Universal Credit was rolled out with the support of a coaltion government but this is a different kind of coalition due to the way seats in Parliament are currently won (not truly proportional representation). That means the make-up of Parliament is split into districts/wards, and it helps to maintain the status quo of a two-party system. If people could vote for whoever they felt represented their views best, and it wouldn't be a 'waste of a vote', we'd see a very different make-up in Parliament and very different decisions.
     
  3. Vesp77

    Vesp77 Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate that it's not an easy idea to swallow, but again, that's an incredibly shocking way of looking at it, we determine a person's intellect as an absolute way of deciding if someone is capable of doing things on a daily basis, why on earth is the same method not applied to determining the fate of an entire nation?
     
  4. bfc

    bfc1001 Well-Known Member

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    Tony Blair , graduated from Oxford university , david Cameron / Teresa may , graduated from Cambridge university . I'm sure they d find your proposed exam easy to pass . Do you consider these people " suitable to vote " ? Are these the type of people your looking for to lead the country ?
     
  5. Trickster Two Six

    Trickster Two Six Well-Known Member

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    Its a sangerous game, I’ve often thought that certain sectirs of society iften breed without thinking, or breed in order to qualify for more handouts. So what do we do, a means/parenting/intellegent test to ensure that only those deemed worthy are allowed to have kids. We voted to leave, we’re being denied that. Democracy is dead.
     
  6. John Peachy

    John Peachy Well-Known Member

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    Russia would be a prime example of that I guess. Putin seems to have genuine support there, despite the human rights issues.
     
  7. John Peachy

    John Peachy Well-Known Member

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    Any Chomsky link wins 10 bonus Peachy likes.
     
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  8. Wat

    Watcher_Of_The_Skies Well-Known Member

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  9. leebrilleaux

    leebrilleaux Well-Known Member

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    The OP asked is democracy the right way to go?

    The answer is surely yes, it most certainly is yes, of course it is.

    However, (I use however 'cos it it's a bigger word than but and I needed to say it's a big but) do people believe we live in a democracy?

    I would reason not.

    Yes we have a form of democracy - the FPTP system we have is flawed by the fact that we in the UK often get large Parliament majorities with a minority percentage of the popular vote. Proportional Representation is the only way of showing how a country actually voted.

    There is far too much power afforded to people who have too much wealth, wealth that has simply been handed to them by accident birth from people who originally gained their wealth from land they obtained by being the best fighter 'You had it, you owned it. You wanted it, you fought for it. You found it, you kept it'. A child born into a 'poor' family has much less chance of 'success' than a child born into a 'rich' family. Once succession of wealth is denied (by denied I suggest limited - with the proceeds enabling a more fairer distribution of wealth) then we are on the way to being a far more democratic society.

    As to the 2016 referendum all I would say is; what an almighty **** up by the Conservative party. This party promised an in/out referendum. Nice and easy option, Easy to understand and easy to implement. Wrong on all counts.

    Why was this vote given such weight in the first place - why wasn't it made explicitly clear that it was an ADVISORY vote?
    Why was there not a (pardon the expression) backstop that for the decision to be enacted upon that there should have been a sufficiently large majority?
    Why was this a 'once in a lifetime' vote? (We have frequent Local/General Elections and people often change their minds in these elections)
    Why was there not cross party consensus derived when it became clear that the vote was not made on political party lines?
    Why was the 2016 PM allowed to jump ship when he promised to invoke Article 50 himself?
    Why have not people been arrested and charged over Vote Leave breaking electoral law?
    Why did the Tories elect a 'Remainer' as PM

    The political system is indeed broken. Then again I would argue that society itself is broken. What is happening now on this referendum with people being openly hostile to others could well become more of a feature in society.

    I fear it could end with a more uneven society with the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, especially if the far right of the Conservative party gets its way. A country led by the likes of Gove/Rees-Mogg/Johnson et al fills me with dread. These kind of people will dismantle all kinds of regulations and protections that we take for granted. Things like the NHS, Minimum Wage, EHRC,
     
  10. lk3

    lk311 Well-Known Member

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    You say that’s it’s not set out clearly yet on Parliments own website it clearly states it.
     
  11. Redhelen

    Redhelen Well-Known Member

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    No these arguments stopped the working class and women from getting the vote for too long.
     
  12. Trickster Two Six

    Trickster Two Six Well-Known Member

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    Tha what !? So all rich people had it handed to them on a plate then ? And nobody coming from humble beginnings ever started their own business and made a success of it for the benefit if their families ? Sounds like the politics of the far left who would ruin the exinimy just as they did last time they were in. Just as dangerous as the far right, when recession caused by financial mismanagement of the far left comes the poorest in society suffer first and most.
     
  13. JDB

    JDB Active Member

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    As I have already said, it's an ambiguous statement not understood by constituents AND MPs. It has to be UNDERSTOOD by both parties. The mere presence of a statement about their responsibilities doesn't constitute an understanding.
     
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  14. lk3

    lk311 Well-Known Member

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    You said it’s not set out, it clearly is, because people don’t understand that is a different thing.
    I would agree that people including some MP’s don’t know
     
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  15. John Peachy

    John Peachy Well-Known Member

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    Welcome to the future, if the Tory party stay in power. They are in the pockets of some seriously bad people. (Look at the funding of the campaigns to leave the EU). I'm totally in favour of PR. I'm a socialist, despite running a fairly successful limited company that has benefitted from lower corporation tax, but if it came in people could vote for half a dozen parties of different flavours & some sort of consensus would result, unlike the shambles that we have now.
     
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  16. churtonred

    churtonred Well-Known Member

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    I love the speed at which some are prepared to start throwing accusations of fascism and comparisons to Hitler, Pol Pot etc.
    Politics in this country and worldwide is seriously screwed. The op raised an interesting talking point. Do I agree with it? No. My knee jerk reaction would be probably yes but then I like to think I analyse things beyond the knee jerk. Unfortunately a lot of people don't and it's one of the reasons we're in the mess we currently are.
    There's a host of problems with our political system...
    The insidious influence of donors who are essentially buying influence and subverting the democratic process.
    The existence of party politics which totally undermines the exercise of reason and compromise. I wish to god every issue could be debated and decided on merit rather than on party lines. PR would be a godsend in terms of injecting some common sense into things.
    I don't agree with tests to assess the right to vote but it's damn well about time that we all started creating an education system that turns out people qualified to make reasoned decisions and also the peer pressure that ensures folk feel the need to study and address the issues that face us as a society on a daily basis.
    If we don't then we're eventually going to end up drowning in a sea of ignorance and inaction. And I use the drowning reference on purpose given the current inability to deal with climate change.
     
  17. Merde Tete

    Merde Tete Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. Russia is a highly educated country, but high literacy and numeracy levels still don't lead to people making sane choices at the voting booth. Putin's core electorate is blue collar workers and the working classes (plus people whose livelihoods depend on his bent system). You're not going to find many educated Moscow and St Petersburg folk with anything good to say about him. But Western-leaning middle class graduates are not representative of the country as a whole, and a huge country it is. They're the same type of folk who would vote for Trump if they were American. Having spent a few weeks travelling around the Deep South last year, the parallels between the two countries are striking. In fact, if you replaced the battered old pick-ups outside every rickety wooden house in Alabama with a Lada and got rid of the Confederate flags, you could easily be in rural Russia.

    Edit - except in rural Russia I understand what people are saying!
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
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  18. Sopwith Camel

    Sopwith Camel Well-Known Member

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    Vesp -Red kestrel... That was you.
    You got run off here then for talking *****
     
  19. Vesp77

    Vesp77 Well-Known Member

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    Ok.
     
  20. churtonred

    churtonred Well-Known Member

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    Vesp can't be red kestrel, he's not called me tory boy yet. :)
     
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