To non-Labour voters on here....

This started as a reply to another post, but it got a little longer than I anticipated and I felt perhaps deserved its own thread. All I ask is that you read it without prejudice and an open mind and maybe click on a few links.

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It's curious how people repeat phrases that are peddled out by the politicians and media, when they are entirely untrue. Even more strange is that people support policies which are diametrically opposed to their own (and most of their fellow citizens) interests. Firstly to pick up a few points from elsewhere.

1) As I've pointed out already, Labour historically spends *less money* than the Conservative party. I know, that's not what you're told, but it's a fact none the less.

2) A government does not have to "live within its means". Borrowing can be and has historically been a form of investment to enable growth. Proof of this can be seen by looking at the massive amounts of money borrowed in the UK following the end of WWII when Debt/GDP was well over 100%. This let the Labour government under Bevin set up the Welfare State and NHS. (A glorious socialist creation that is currently being run down and privatised).

3) A government can print more money when required in the form of bonds etc. (see £435bn in QE after banking crash). Indeed the majority of large countries are running a deficit and are in debt. Amber Rudd amusingly said that it was not “monopoly money” yet monopoly itself disagrees.

4) The Conservative Party was alone in perusing a very aggressive austerity programme following the collapse of the banking system. A policy broadly not enacted as harshly elsewhere in the world. This was a dogmatic, ideologically driven decision.

5) The broad policy of New Labour is a good one, that being that the wealthiest in society should pay more money. Corporation tax is going back up, but only to a level just under what it was before the Tory Government cut it.

6) The rise in VAT on people earning over £100k a year means they pay just £20 a week extra.

7) Most of the public debt in this country comes from unpaid, avoided and evaded tax. In 2012/13 this debt to the public was an estimated £119.4bn

Since the financial crash of 2009 the net worth of the richest 1000 families in the UK had doubled. In 2015 those richest 1000 families in the UK saw their wealth increase by 14% to £658bn. Amazon paid just £11m in tax in 2014 on net profits of £5.3bn. In previous years Amazon paid no tax at all. Ebay paid £1m in tax on £1.1bn in profit. Many businesses were given massive Corporate Welfare handouts (subsidies grants and tax breaks) to the tune of £93bn. That's over £3,500 per UK household.

You should stop and have a think about that for a moment and ask why the 60million people in this country have suffered terrible austerity that's decimated working conditions, the NHS, mental health services, created thousands of food banks, seen zero hours contracts, cut funding to police officers, schools, created massive homeless problems etc. whilst just 1,000 people are twice as well off as they were six years ago and 14% better off than they were just last year! And when the trheat of a tax rise is mentioned we hear,

Which is telling, because it proves that these people are not motivated by the welfare of their fellow men, women and children, but simply by the desire to accumulate more wealth for themselves and their shareholders. Profit for the sake of profit. And the threat to go elsewhere? Well they are essentially holding a gun to our heads and saying,

That is extortion, not business. The argument about them leaving is also bunkum because the proposed rise in Corporation tax would still see those countries paying less tax than they would in most other European and worldwide economies. Indeed the US level of Corporation Tax is and would be much higher at 40%! Lastly, paying more tax is actually beneficial to large companies as they benefit from a healthier, better educated, more productive workforce. Who wants to employ sick, tired, uneducated, unmotivated people?

Vote Labour. Take back the money tree. It's yours.

Edit: Amended some spelling and added some links.

 

It may well be extortion, but they are acting in the interests of their shareholders to generate as much return as possible. Many of which are pension funds, trusts and other forms of deposits, some held by councils and public sector organisations (you can see the tragic irony of punishing the gargantuan tax dodging company and harming the public sector while doing so)

I agree companies should pay their fair share of tax. In a globalised economy, its very easy to debunk to another country, get just as good if not better returns on investment, have very highly motivated, very well looked after staff, and simply leave behind an empty building and thousands of newly unemployed people, or take millions of pounds of income tax, NI and general expenditure out of the economy.

I'm not a tory, its just not as black and white as wanting morality to intervene and expecting free willed companies to sit and take their medicine (which they will feel is excessive).

the other thing I want to say about business. There's a very unhealthy air that all businesses are the devil. There are many ethical companies that contribute to society, make the world a better place and provide jobs, opportunity and prosperity for many people.

Small companies too. And there are over 90% of our 3.6m businesses in the UK, highly reliant on big businesses and often put it huge amounts of hours and self sacrifice to do well. I do hope such people aren't begrudged any successes they have, or tied in with the high profile international tax dodgers who should rightly pay a fair share of corporation tax

 

Given that corporation tax is the lowest in the civilised world and would remain so where are these companies going to go?

 

As if Amazon or Vodafone, Starbucks or whoever would leave the UK.

The options are you can have 80% of loads or 100% of nowt. I think I know which they will choose.

 

Ireland is a start, but you'll know full well, a company can create mystical management charges to place income or costs in a place that is most advantageous.

There are many large businesses starting moves to the continent to ensure leaving the EU doesn't harm them as much. By pushing up taxes (which they are likely still not to pay anyway), you're unlikely to actually achieve a great deal, other than damage the smaller businesses who are working crazily busy just to stand still.

 

And banks? And law firms? And financial firms? And accountants? And tech companies? And pharmaceuticals? And advanced manufacturers, and......

Its easy to cite a few examples the media throw us. And the taxes they've paid are sweetheart deals. They are using international accounting standards. Unless you change the international accounting framework, and have constant rates of tax, there are many reasons not to do business in the UK, something that's been happening since July last year.

 

Thanks, some interesting points....

Well as someone once said,

And that's the situation in many cases with large corporations. It's legally authorised plunder.

I won't disagree with this. However it does re-inforce my original message in that it highlights how a system that should serve everyone is beholden to the will of a few shareholders. If they paid more tax (and where applicable better wages) then people would have more money, the government would have more revenue and we would not be caught in a spiders web where peoples retirement was baked into their profits.

It needs a co-ordinated effort, but that's one that's largely unlikely to come when some governments are essentially funded by and populated with the same financial organisations that are not likely to vote for Christmas. A brief example

[QUOTEThe other thing I want to say about business. There's a very unhealthy air that all businesses are the devil. There are many ethical companies that contribute to society, make the world a better place and provide jobs, opportunity and prosperity for many people.[/QUOTE]

Clearly those who pay their dues are not the target of my posts. On the radio this morning I heard a businessman in Sheffield who said he was more than happy to pay extra tax because in the end he felt it benefited his business.

Yes, small businesses reliant upon the likes of Tesco to pay them a decent return for their goods and on time.

 

Oh yes, Ireland. That's where the EU stepped in and said,

"Apple, you owe Ireland 13 billion Euros as you weren't paying enough tax (Ireland of course having lowest corporation tax levels). To which the Irish government replied,

A whole nation on it's knees to a multinational who has net cash of $162bn.

The system is broken. and making excuses as to why it is the way it is won't fix the system or out problems.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...t-slump-election-pound-sterling-a7766286.html

 

To find out how much your local school will win/lose under a Tory/Labour/LibDem government you can visit the link below.

CLICK>> School Cuts


For reference:

 

The Magic Money Tree

 

The Magic Money Tree.








Source: The Equality Trust.

 

Then don't post links to left wing media websites?

No corporation tax, there is a massive difference. Corporation tax makes up a tiny proportion of the total worth of business to the economy. For a start, 13.8% on your total wage bill is a massive tax.

It is happening. It's called BEPS and its being rolled out by the OECD. Big business tax avoidance is coming to an end and it has been for a while now, it just doesn't make a good story so its barely ever reported. Over the last few years tax legislation has tightened up immensely.

 

All payroll taxes apart from employers NI are suffered by deduction so effectively the employee pays the tax. Vat is collected from the company's customers. Even a significant level of employers ni can be avoided if the workforce consists of part time lower paid workers.

With regard to ct schemes for avoidance this is one that comes to mind

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Sandwich

 

Blah blah blah vote labour. Blah blah blah vote tories. Blah vote libs. Bla vote green etc.

All the parties hollow promises can be championed, challenged,supported, dismissed as easily as the next.

I understand there is an election next week but this constant look at these marvelous facts figures and statistics that keep getting spouted and rammed down the throat is getting tedious now.
Its not so much the posts but the almost non stop condsending attitude in reponse to people whos veiws differ. The sneering of you dont understand this bias article in newspaper X so you are not as intelligent as me. You read newspaper X so you are a racist bigot. And so forth.
Calling and implying that people are scum who dont share the same political ideals as you are scum.
Some of you on this and other threads need checking for rabies with the frothing of the mouth that goes on.

 

It's still tax that otherwise wouldn't be paid. Whether it's paid by the employees or customers, it's effectively a tax on business as prices and wages would be adjusted accordingly.

My understanding is the Dutch Sandwich is now caught by BEPS.

 

I wouldn't abuse anyone as 'scum' for expressing an.opinion whether they agreed or disagreed with me. I would use that term to describe all tax avoidance and evasion and all those who facilitate it. It's organised and systematic and wrong. The missing funds could be used for a variety of things to replace tbe dementia Tax for instance or to put more coppers on tbe beat to help prevent terrorism or even for tbe good old NHS. So yes scum for me. To be clear this is aimed at those people who do this no individual on here not even the cheerleaders for tax avoidance.

 

It doesn't matter what we think really. Sad fact is that Labour don't stand much of a chance of winning on 8th June.
I say that with a heavy heart but having a branch of the family living in Bournemouth I know how they "lean" politically down
large swathes of the South. Row after row of empty shops, having to do three jobs to keep a roof over their heads and yet they still vote Tory.! It's only my view but I don't think we'll get sufficient votes to get us over the line.


My cousin Pete is critical of Corbyn and his policies. My response is he's laid out his parties fully costed manifesto and has
the courage to support it ( even though he may not agree with certain elements himself.)

I have pointed out 10 elements in his so called Strong and Stable parties performance over the last ten months.

1. The plan to hammer the self employed over increased NI payments was abandoned 7 days after the Budget
following a backlash from a Tory voters.

2. Seven times after saying there wouldn't be a General election when she went walking with Philip in Wales he convinced her to call one.!

3.The plan to appear tough on immigration by making firms submit lists of their foreign employees was axed one day
after the party conference.

4. The Cabinet ridiculed Ed Milliband and labelled him a Marxist for his suggestions on capping energy prices.
Well slappa my thigh a version of that policy has been included in the Tory manifesto.

5. The Government announced their plans to take 3,000 unaccompanied child refugees after backing the Dubs amendment.
A total of 350 were allowed in and the scheme is being closed ( slated Abbott regarding her maths.)

6. May said we would be removed for a proposed shake up of human rights laws. She has now abandoned that plan and it's not in the Tory manifesto.

7. Brexit. She personally voted to Remain. She said at the time " it threatens Britains future influence around the world, our security and our prosperity." She now claims in every speech I've heard her make that " Brexit is a great opportunity" for the UK. She's in West Yorkshire again today and still insisting Brexit is a great opportunity for Britain and she's the only one to deliver it. At the first sign of "aggression" from our European partners you watch her wobble.

8. She said that plans to build a new nuclear reactor funded by Japanese/ other investment at Hinckley Point would not happen on her watch.
A few weeks later the Energy Minister announced that it's going to happen.!

9. In her campaign to be the new " Iron Lady" she promised that if she became PM she would force firms to include workers on their boards. Once elected the policy was revised to suggest that advisory panels are set up to feed ideas/ grievances up to their firms boards . Such an idea has existed in most progressive companies I have ever know for years.

10. A cap on social care costs was ditched like a grenade with the pin pulled out four days after it was included in the manifesto after it was branded " the Dementia tax" and pilloried by Tory supporters up and down the land including ' ar kid in
Bournemouth cos my cousin ( his Dad) is showing signs of Parkinson's unfortunately .

He acts as an escort from the Crown Court in Winchester to prisons in and around the south, works behind a bar in Poole six nights a week and a bookies on a Saturday just to pay his mortgage. Can't afford to drink and smoke and can't afford a holiday or tickets to watch his club ( Southampton) His drum is not as good as mine up here but at £450k it's worth double what mine would sell for up here.

But he's still a committed Tory and even though he comes up here and sees the nice places in and around our County you'll never convince him that he's never had it so good.!

Just read in the paper where the Prime Minister has written to leading entertainment characters urging them to give her their support. Dara O'Briain was surprised and amused that it his was headed Dear Dara and Briain.
Clearly as far as his fame is concerned the lady is not impressed.

 

An excellent thought provoking post, I hope this thread gets into a debate without resorting to tribalism etc

However imho other than subtle differences in social policy and attitude to Brexit negotiations, fundamentally it doesn't matter who gets in. Fiscal and economic policy is driven by bank sponsored debt, publically and privately. Neither main party will address this, for many reasons, not least of all, it's the banks and finance houses where govt ministers end up - they aren't going to damage that - especially seeing as cushy numbers as EU Commissioners is about to go down the pan. Unless and until they look here, http://positivemoney.org/our-proposals/ then nothing will change, other than rising levels of debt.