Tories and Brexit Party in coalition .

Discussion in 'Bulletin Board' started by Marlon, Nov 11, 2019.

  1. orsenkaht

    orsenkaht Well-Known Member

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    I think one or two on here need to dial it down a bit if any debate on the issue is worth having.

    For me, it looks like this. Parliament gave people the right to make the decision, but not the right to determine how it was implemented (hard Brexit/soft Brexit/ customs union and/or single market or not, etc, etc, etc.) It follows therefore that only Parliament, which is sovereign, can decide the latter part of the issue. 'The people' that made the decision to leave also made the decision to return to Parliament the MP's who are divided on how Brexit should be implemented. So that's where we are.

    'Respect' for the referendum decision means respect for the people's voice. But it can't be implemented if the second part of the question above isn't resolved. Therefore there is legitimate debate about the way forward. What is clear to me is that the decision the people made cannot simply be ignored. But it is quite legitimate to go back to the people to say "is this what you meant?" (Assuming Parliament can agree on the deal to be put forward in a confirmatory vote).

    I can see four possibilities in this election. The Conservatives might win outright, in which case I think the result could quite legitimately be interpreted as a vote of confidence for Johnson's deal as the way forward. Labour might win outright, in which case the Labour renegotiation followed by a confirmatory vote would be the way forward. The Lib Dems might (very remote chance) win outright, in which case I think they would have a democratic mandate to scrap Brexit altogether having made that a central plank of their election strategy. In each of these cases the further decision of the people will have clarified the 2016 vote and made some sort of way forward possible. That will not have ignored the 2016 result - it will only have further clarified it. I repeat that the 2016 result cannot provide the way forward of itself, no matter what David Cameron might have erroneously promised.

    The fourth possibility is that there is a further hung Parliament. Some might say this is the likeliest possibility. This would not be some sort of disaster. It would simply reflect the reality that the original margin of the referendum was insufficient to enact the decision on a basis agreed by Parliament. 'The people' after all would then again have willed the way forward but not the means. The stasis would simply be a reflection of the division in society at large over the Brexit issue. It would then be for the MP's returned to do more by way of compromise and collaborative working to devise an agreed way out of the impasse.

    'Democracy' does not demand pressing forward with leaving by any means. It requires full agreement on how we leave. This election might or might not provide the answer to that. And I respect the views of others who don't view all of the above the way I do. But shouting and sloganizing ain't going to solve it.
     
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  2. Redhelen

    Redhelen Well-Known Member

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    I agree.
    Also this is a general election not another referendum so please vote (regardless of party),on all issues that are important to you. We have just had a thread about remembrance . A lot of our ancestors suffered so we could have the democracy that we have now.
     
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  3. Marlon

    Marlon Well-Known Member

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    If you see this as a one issue election then your not in a minority which is a big shame .
    I like yourself but on the opposite spectrum voted labour last time even though I’m a staunch remainer and they as you say campaigned on a leave ticket .
    I had to hold my nose on that one issue because I knew what was the alternative on all the other important issues .
    I shall be voting labour again because of the alternative , I myself see how fickle people are on a one issue subject , years of Tory Austerity and neglect of our essential services which has seen medical waiting lists for Doctors and hospitals . Seen crime rise through the roof with only affluent areas receiving any sort of police service after a crime .
    The fact bumbling Boris is a serial liar and one vision career politician who will lie and betray anyone including his family to further his own career.
    I’m not loyal to the Labour Party because of one issue I’m loyal because of the alternatives of hundreds of other issues .
    Corbyn has been attacked for unbelievable reasons which shows the establishment are worried especially the media .
    Boris and his party had seen the biggest rise in homeless military veterans yet Some of the veterans who are alright jack don’t attack him.
    A one issue election is on the cards unfortunately even though the lies of the Tory’s are laid bare .
    They won’t release the Reports of the Russian interference because they don’t want to spoil the muppets version of the facts.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
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  4. MDG

    MDG Well-Known Member

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    Incorrect Brexit hasn't yet been stopped.. Hopefully it won't. As for the above.. It wasn't the Tories, it wasn't Labour, it was a mixture of MP's from all parties.
     
  5. Sco

    Scoff Well-Known Member

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    Looking at the announcement that the BxP will only fight opposition held seats, which will reduce the likelihood of a Tory majority - the Tories need to take somewhere upwards of 70 seats to get a majority (assuming they lose 10 in Scotland and a number of Remain areas to Lib Dems). Splitting the Leaver vote against the incumbent MP will not help that, neither will standing against Labour-Leave MPs like Caroline Flint.

    This suggests that Farage is actually trying to get a hung Parliament and increasing the chance of stopping Brexit - which would stop him being yesterdays man and allow him to grift more money off the true believers...
     
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  6. Don

    Donny-Red Well-Known Member

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    That’s a bit of a misunderstanding of the mechanics of Parliament.
    The government bought a working majority for £1billion of yours and my taxes. The primary piece of legislation they put before that parliament was the withdrawal bill, to pass it, they didn’t need the backing of anyone other than Conservatives and the DUP.
    The ‘government’ then failed to support their own bill.
    Just to be clear, MP’s not belonging to the Conservative party or the DUP are called ‘the opposition’, and the clue as to their role is self explanatory.

    so if you want to blame any MPs for the WA not getting through Parliament, you have to look no further than the government benches. it’s irrelevant whether any Labour, SNP or Lib Dem’s voted against it, the government had a working majority that you and I paid for.
     
  7. MDG

    MDG Well-Known Member

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    That's your view. Mine is as quoted, it's not just some of the Tory party who have blocked Brexit, it is cross party.

    I'm in the view that the Tories will probably end up with a working majority following this election and won't need any agreement with the DUP or another party so Brexit will pass based on the latest deal the PM put to parliament last time.
     
  8. Sco

    Scoff Well-Known Member

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    To get a working majority, the Tories need to win 50+ seats in England (and probably nearer 70+). They had 298 MPs, will lose around 10 in Scotland, some to LibDems in Remain areas, leaving them down to ~270-280. A majority requires around 320 MPs (depending on how many Sinn Fein win plus Speaker). Can you say which areas you think will they will win?
     
  9. ark

    ark104 (v2) Well-Known Member

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    The one you last voted for in 1997?
     
  10. MDG

    MDG Well-Known Member

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    Not really, expect them to take quite a few Labour seats especially marginals where the referendum vote was to leave. Most polls (and I know they are flawed) seem to point towards increased support. Just my prediction that the Tories will be elected with a majority this time. Fib Dems support seems to be dropping again. Think you are over egging the seats in Scotland and the sway t the Fib dems.
     
  11. dartonpete

    dartonpete Well-Known Member

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    This is our party back, look at those policies, after 9 years of these c@nts, the fact that people are blaming the leader says more about their constant brainwashing by the media than it does about any individual politician. As for voting Tory, well I feel no need to comment there.
     
  12. MDG

    MDG Well-Known Member

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    Waiting for the costings and analysis by the so called experts but Labours spending seems unrealistic at best. They never account for the wealth removal from the country when they start to tax the wealthy and close tax loopholes. They will not have costed for businesses moving away to other countries when they raise corporation tax, yet they will make pie in the sky promises on everything just to win votes.. Plus they were not honest in their last manifesto as to when all these massive scale changes to our country would take place. Absolutely no chance of doing what they claim in a single term so why promise what cannot be delivered? They need to start telling the truth.
     
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  13. Marlon

    Marlon Well-Known Member

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    They were praised on the 2017 manifesto and passed all the fiscal tests from independent bodies ,
    Try something else your stabs in the dark are getting tiresome.
     
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  14. Sco

    Scoff Well-Known Member

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    To take those Labour leave seats, it would mean that the Bxp and Tories weren't splitting the Leave vote, but Farage is fighting those seats...
     
  15. MDG

    MDG Well-Known Member

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    Marlon give it a rest with your own digs whenever someones comments don't fit your own personal narrative. This is a genuine concern. From what I have been hearing, the spending commitments this time around dwarf what they promised in the last election. So where on earth are they getting the extra money from, especially as they claim the Tories have destroyed the economy. If nothing really has changed and things have got worse.. How can they possibly promise even more spending?

    PS.. Pretty sure the IFS raised serious questions about Labours promises last time.
     
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  16. MDG

    MDG Well-Known Member

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    Well, we'll soon find out I guess. I just feel that a Tory majority is on the cards.. Just my opinion.
     
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  17. MDG

    MDG Well-Known Member

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    Bit of light reading from you, from one of the independent bodies I presume you were quoting from.

    https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/9218
     
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  18. Marlon

    Marlon Well-Known Member

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    Don’t like being challenged MDG. You’ve put out a wrong statement you’ve been called out , deal with it . If you want to spout lies and not be challenged start your own forum .
    Labours costing are there for all to see fully costed and explained .
     
  19. MDG

    MDG Well-Known Member

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    No they aren't. They have not even been released yet so you are talking complete BS. Their manifesto hasn't even been released yet Marlon. You were challenged Marlon, I responded with a genuine concern, you hated your little propaganda machine being challenged after being called out. I even supplied you with a link from the Institute of Fiscal studies who clearly say.
    Labour’s manifesto spending plans are impossible to cost.

    Another thing, Could you let me know when you started to own this forum by the way?

    So I'll throw your challenge back. Please post a link which provides what you clearly claim as gospel where Labours 2019 General Election spending plans are fully costed.

    I don't believe you can. I will of course apologise profusely should you prove me wrong after accusing me of spouting lies etc.... So live up to your post then!
     
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  20. shenk1

    shenk1 Well-Known Member

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    Where are the Tory party costing?s.....same place as the last election...not there. Where are their costings for Brexit.?....withheld.

    Where are the Brexit Party's costings ?

    The figures being bandied about by the press and Tories are from a report that was never intended as a manifesto, just a "how much would this idea cost" exercise.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
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