Well he'd get my vote.

not sure what your point is.
In many respects this is a brilliant site - have had a lot of useful advice over the years - and financial advice from one guy which saved me £500.

As I see it it should be a forum for all views - if someone oversteps the mark then they can be banned. However what has happened is that anyone who doesn't go along with the majority view will probably be personally abused. (Just read the messages on this thread aimed at the Brampton guy for daring to not criticise the Tory party.)
If people get personally attacked they either stop posting or leave the site and gradually the site goes downhill.

To go completely OT - know you're Ireland based - have been doing a family history search on a family with Irish Roots and accessed the free on line Irish Family history sites - could actually see full old birth-marriage-death certificates. Costs £11 here.

 

No, of course not.

 

Just so I'm clear, are you saying that you voted for the UK to leave the EU because of the current governments of Hungary and Poland?

 

Rubbish.I've done, you've done it, loads of us have & we're all entitled to do so without the fear of retribution, get achuffin grip.

 

To answer your question - I voted to leave mainly because of the state in 2016 of the Governments of Poland (Law and Justice Party deputy p m Morowiecki) and Hungary (President Orban)
(I was also concerned about the rise of Nationalism in Germany.)

 

It can go too far on occasion and I'm not behind the door at challenging someone for right wing views. I think a right wing philosophy is self serving, selfish and completely lacking in empathy for those less well off or fortunate. If someone posts alonh those lines I'll speak up.
There was someone on here in the early days of covid complaining that Roger from the bowls club was being allowed to live past 82 at the expense of young uns having to stay in.
Some of the comments such as that should be vilified and if that's piling on then count me in. Some views are just unacceptable.

On the o/t bit all my roots are Yorkshire though my other half (Sionnach) is pure Dub with one grandad who was in the IRA and her Dad and his Dad who served in India with the British army in the war and her Dad in the Royal Marines. It's a right mixed bag.
I'd happily pay decent money to dig out my roots but I don't think I'd get very far.

 

Well you're perfectly within your rights to have done that, but in my opinion it is utterly bonkers. I hope that's not seen as an infringement of your free speech!

If in a few years it turns out that leaving a supra-national organisation in the way we did has made us less nationalist than the EU as a whole then I promise you that I'll be the first to stand up and admit it.

 

Red-Taff. said: ↑
To answer your question - I voted to leave mainly because of the state in 2016 of the Governments of Poland (Law and Justice Party deputy p m Morowiecki) and Hungary (President Orban)
(I was also concerned about the rise of Nationalism in Germany.)

I admit to finding Red-Taff's reason for voting leave strange but that is his view and he is free to express it.

In a way, the irony of this whole ongoing divide, is there is a similarity between leave supporters of a single sovereign state (UK) being described as nationalists and remain supporters of the EU.

If nationalists are accused of being protectionist in keeping out / making it difficult for free movement from 'outsiders' and having trade barriers using tariffs and quotas and bureaucratic mechanisms for countries that have not negotiated trade agreements, then it becomes difficult to differentiate between that and the European Union which has all of those, just on a larger scale in the form of a trading bloc. Being 'EUist' means you too support a protectionist organisation.
Does that make many 'EUists' "racist" for restricting non-European foreigners migrating like UK leavers are constantly told they are?
Looking at all the problems that Brexit has caused, if you reflect, most are caused by intransigence, rigid application of nonsensical bureaucratic protectionist rules designed to restrict free trade and movement outside the boundaries of the EU member states. How is that any different from a single country applying protectionist rules for the same reasons?

Examples of EU stupidity and inflexible adherence to nonsensical rules they implemented (applies to all 3rd countries before Brexit)
Meat and dairy products even tinned cannot be imported into the EU by an individual even when the product originated in the EU, was imported into the UK sold in the UK and an individual is travelling to the EU with it under a justification it is designed to protect the EU citizens from substandard foods and protect their Health. Surely anything labelled product of the EU should be exempt.
Fish /shellfish from UK waters, pre Brexit was deemed safe and could be exported to the EU and cleaned processed there .
Overnight when the transition period ended, suddenly, using the same justification (safety Health of UK citizens etc...) it was suddenly deemed unsafe and , e.g. seafood had to be processed prior to exporting, Oh! and fish caught in same waters by EU fishing fleets were not subject to those rules. Nonsensical.
Now I know the first response to all this is that we 'signed up for this so it is all the fault of the UK negotiators' which I am not denying. However, the point I am making is the in or out argument is NOT black and white as many on here make out. The EU is a vast, corrupt, bureaucratic machine, that costs a fortune to run, and is actually a barrier to free trade with the rest of the World.

I agree, reforming from the inside would have been better than leaving but it would never happen since, like domestic politicians, once you join the 'gravy train', after a short while the 'self entitlement' attitude kicks in and complacency sets in. The EU commission have no intention or will to reform and, in fact, want to expand their remit.

 

Eloquently put and I’m not sure anyone has suggested that the EU was in any way perfect.

I still don’t see the U.K. being better off, or even as well off, in many terms, having left it - not just short term, but also in generations to come.

The faults of the EU are numerous but the benefits membership brought (a lot of which we wouldn’t get back even if we chose to return) outstripped most or all concerns.

I’m yet to see a single benefit of being outside the EU - I’m sure there probably have been some, and I don’t mean lies about rolling out vaccines, but feel free to educate me - and I don’t see any in the medium term future either.

 

I see Q2 saw UK GDP contract by 0.1%. And GDP falling 0.6% in June.

As I mentioned at the time, the jubilee and having an extra bank holiday made a big dent and explains the increase in GDP in May where a bank holiday was moved to extend the jubilee period in June.

Worrying times. Recession, inflation, drought, energy security. Very worrying times.

 

You see thats an idiotic reply and needs calling out..
What as been said about Gordon Brown is true. No one in History as every given more taxpayers more away to Bankers than Gordon Brown. You do remember when he got into Downing Street after that other shyster was found out. One of his first invites was a certain Mrs T..

 

Have a read

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/feb/21/gordon-brown-saved-banks

 

Gordon Brown also introduced tax on pension funds too which unsurprisingly was followed by pension fund deficits all over the place.

 

The outcome good or bad of Brexit was not what my post was about. It was simply an observation of the continuing divide and the hypocrisy of those who hurl insults and accusations of racism and nationalism and being 'little Englanders yet fail to recognise that is exactly how the EU operates. EU discriminates against all countries not in the club. Club members only benefit from other countries being excluded who pay a penalty in the form of tariffs.

 

I'm not sure your stance is a fair one given that the world has varying levels of tariffs, terms, quotas and obligations and a vast array of standards that are centred around core markets.

Like all set ups that have members, you look out for your members. You try and make it easier for your members and you have something that benefits them, as they are members.

Numerous countries have trade deals with the EU. So good, we've rolled most of them over after we've left!

You could argue it's protectionist. You could equally argue its operating on behalf of its members and not in the interests of everyone else. Isn't that sovereignty that was badged as the highest priority by the brextremists?

If you think that individuals, groups, companies and countries don't look after themselves first and foremost, I'm not sure what to tell you. This is planet earth.

 

Call me out anytime you want. I won’t cry bully because a few posters have disagreed with my reply. I tell you what is vile, the Tories on here dipping into posts when it suits and won’t decry their own support of the disgusting, lying, self- centred politicians that are running there party. Probably says as much about them as well. BTW I’m far from a Blairite or Brownite, but fek me they were little cherubs compared with these Tories and the shameful shower that support them

 

I fully understand your point of view, but my response to it is more or less the same to that I'd have given the 'Lexit' proponents (and I was once one of them).

If I'd thought for a moment that leaving the EU would really have increased free trade and movement with the rest of the world, rather than just keeping the benefits within Europe, then I'd have voted for it in a second. I'm pro-immigration as an absolute - I think the numbers show that the benefit of immigration to a given economy is such that any additional housing and infrastructure that people require can be provided out of the benefits, with plenty left over, if the political will is there. It's better for everybody. As such, I'll pretty much go with whatever will make it easier for people to move to the UK. In an ideal world, Brexit would have done that, and I accept that lots of people who pushed for it think along the same lines. Admittedly I find the free trade stuff a bit dodgier, but I will say that given the system we've got I'm not sure any option available is better than any other at the moment.

But it was glaringly obvious to me that this was never on the table. A few of the people who pushed for Brexit had lofty ideals, and good ones. But the small-minded racists - and 99% of them were on your side - always had the majority and controlled the argument. I generally vote ideologically, but putting my mark in the box to remain in the EU is probably the only time I've ever voted 100% pragmatically. It's not that all people who voted to leave are racist, but those who were have definitively won the argument within the movement as things stand. Maybe over time that will change, and I hope it does, but however you cut it Brexit has so far made this country far more insular.