All these remoaners

Actually you assume that he can continue to do so. Not guaranteed until a deal is reached.

 

I don't disagree...but the issue was of of openness and transparency.

 

That is a genuinely unbelievable comment.

 

Why? Its is within the gift of the Spanish government to decide who can enter the country from the UK. Chances are we can go, chances are we'll need a visa of some kind.

 

Sorry but that kind of argument is ridiculous...I'm sure you don't really think that Spain would even for a fleeting second consider banning the 18m UK tourists who go there every year....even the worst excesses of Project Fear never claimed that.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...japan-ambassador-britain-brexit-single-market

 

Despite what the politician says it hasn't stopped the businessmen from Toyota, Nissan and Honda.

https://www.ft.com/content/b177c726-1c5b-11e8-956a-43db76e69936

https://japan-forward.com/japans-business-leaders-vow-to-stay-in-britain-despite-brexit/

 

If the UK leaves without a deal, then we have no deal. That means business, trade *and* travel. Until an agreement is reached with another country then entry is entirely down to them

Can I see Spain turning away Brits forever - not at all. Can I see British visitors to Spain paying for a visa each visit - yes. Can I see a few planefuls of Brits arriving at EU countries on the first few days getting turned away (after a cavity search or two) for not having the correct papers? - absolutely in a no deal exit scenario...

 

Things change. The did not believe we would be ridiculous enough to leave the SM. Now they do. Investment has stopped. An ambassador is not a politician. All these business people from inside and outside the EU are not engaged in sone weird pan global project fear. They are trying to help us. How blunt do you wAnt them to be exactly?

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...log-supply-post-brexit?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

Your second link predates the Guardian piece...

 

It may pre-date it slightly but it doesn't alter the fact that the politician...or should I say politically appointed civil servant is saying investment has stopped when plainly those companies have committed to invest and are intending to continue...unless you can point to evidence where they have withdrawn the commitment.

Likewise BMW have committed investment here post 2016
https://www.ft.com/content/1f699b52-e639-38ae-9a3d-4fdaa113327b
They have also said ( sorry but I can't just find the link...genuinely!!) that in the event of a no deal and tariff scenario, they will build their two most popular UK imports in the UK.
Please don't assume I'm arguing that everything will be easy...as some seem to think, but in the real world these difficulties will be solved.
Like the Airbus situation that some have quoted on here as armageddon...Airbus is Europe's major political project...this recent statement in my view is purely the Company singing the expected song....strategically timed around the negotiations....people may forget but they have already announced in a letter to employees that they intend to carry on in the UK.
From a practical view, in these days of just in time manufacturing they know full well they can't just cease building wings...(the most technically challenging part of the process) in the UK and send the plant abroad, it would take a long time to re-establish the plant...employ and train a brand new workforce with the necessary skills and then produce wings to the standards required...it would be a gift from God to Boeing...who coincidentally (perhaps) have just reaffirmed their commitment to UK manufacturing, much smaller admittedly than Airbus at the moment, perhaps they see an opportunity?

 

[QUOTE="Jimmy cricket, post: 2152077,
All these business people from inside and outside the EU are not engaged in sone weird pan global project fear. They are trying to help us. How blunt do you wAnt them to be/QUOTE]

Jimmy...they are exactly engaged in Project Fear, they are people with massive vested interests, that require stability and control of countries to further their interests...they are not trying to help us,( to think so, in my view is incredibly naive ..and I dont wish to be offensive) only themselves and the institutions that can facilitate that control.
From your posts I deduce you are left of centre, as I believe I am, Corbyn sees the EU for what it actually is....Skinner also sees it...Tony Benn spent a lifetime arguing the actual truth...I assume you are much younger than me but Benn argued the case 40 odd years ago. .it is as fresh and relevant today as it was then...sadly too few people believed him at that time...myself included.

 

Very interesting.....I agree on the Visa...but is it actually within the gift of the Spanish Govt. to decide if UK nationals can visit?...surely that would be taken out of their hands...do they have that sovereign right under EU law? ( I don't know the answer tbh)

 

I think discards in fishing has

Soon to be 27 is the number of EU countries, not my age.

 

Schengen complicates it, but it probably depends on the part of Spain. The Canaries are not in the EU for example.

When we are in the EU, I don't think they can, but outside the EU it is down to the arangements between the individual governments. We are then a third country and get what agreement they and ours can agree on.

For example:

https://www.majorca.com/v/visa-requirements/

All visitors from countries not listed need a visa and requirements can change at short notice....

I suspect those with criminal records may also find European travel a lot harder.

 

Likewise

Discards was a terrible thing. But did the EU order fishermen to do so? The EU were slow to react for sure, but the human condition is more to blame. Fishing practices are frighteningly intensive now. And instead of reducing fishing efforts or being more targetted, instead fishing has become intensive and destructive and fishermen are content to throw dead fish back. Its happening all over the world, and if you look in Indonesia, their government has agreed a deal for the bedrock to be dredged, which could put huge amounts of sealife in danger, including the oldest mineral sea vents which could well be building blocks of life. There are parts of the SE Asian seas which are like deserts from over fishing. I welcome that they put limits in place across Europe and fish stocks have been showing signs of recovery, despite this ridiculous practice. I believe the Eu were well intentioned, but, just as humans do, they find the easiest most convenient action that circumvents rules for personal benefit and gain.

Forcing countries. You mean like the commons ignoring Lords amendments and kicking the brexit withdrawal bill back? Or a 3 line whip that prevents free will, scrutiny or true debate?

We haven't had our national interest served in a good while. And that's the great illusion. Does the Eu serve itself to meet its ambitions and try and have consistency across Europe, yes, of course it does. As does all organisations. And I can see why a little country with ideas above its station that has criticised the EU and its residents forever, belittling it, mocking it, disagreeing with it, may well not like being told brutal truths.

But if anyone thinks we are sovereign, and have MPs that all self sacrificing for a greater good that serve people, they are completely mistaken or just not willing to see.

I respect your views, but if ever the expensively researched and tested phrase "project fear" gets trotted out, I know a person has swallowed the leave line hook line and sinker. Vested interests exist, and the starting point for investigation should be the bodies of the vote leave campaign,

 

I’m not a massive fan of the EU particularly post Maastricht. Like Corbyn I’d see myself as a 6 or 7 out of 10. At the same time again like Corbyn as the EU has drifted to the left and the UK to the right I can see it provides some valuable checks and balances particularly in the area of employment rights. If we had a system of PR that helped to shut out extremism and a fairer electoral system then I’d be less concerned about leaving the EU.

As it is the Ref will deliver the Singapore on Thames model and once again the poorest will take the hit.

A sensible position as I believe we should respect the referendum is to leave the EU but remain in the CU and SM, (accepting the 4 freedoms) remain in all institutions such as Euratom etc. there is little point in committing economic suicide for some mistaken notion of sovereignty which we always had anyway.

Accepting the 4 freedoms including freedom of movement we should come out and make a straight statement that we will continue to encourage immigration because it is the right thing for a forward thinking internationalist nation to do and benefits our economy massively. We should clearly state that if you voted to leave the EU out of reasons of racism. We are not encouraging you we reject your world view. We should further state that the problems that people blame immigrants for are the decisions of U.K. govt.

If the current govt cannot negotiate the above or something of equal or better value then I believe a 2nd ref is necessary with the questions being stay in the EU or send the govt back to negotiate ( I think the second one win which would cause a GE).

 

Avent got any cammo, don’t need it , got some boots though, need them , bang bang , woof woof

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...isk-warns-car-industry?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

I don't understand that. I could make a guess but don't bother yourself to explain it. It's probably meant to be menacing. Just like your avatar.