There is only one person arguing that Stokes is not a good player: one person in the whole wide world
I agree. That so many people are agreeing he's neither a world class batsmen or a world class bowler does make it very bizarre indeed, because thats exactly my point. He is a very good fielder though, I'll give him that, not as good as Collingwood, but you do know if the ball goes near him he's potentially going to catch it.
name me one allrounder that was world class in batting or bowling. A genuine all rounder. So i'm not thinking Kallis or Waugh.
his batting average is better than all of Englands top 6 aside from Root. so it's not his fault he's pushed higher up the order than he would have
So Jacques Kallis wasn't an allrounder?!?!?!? Tell you what. If Stokes can attain an average of either 45 with the bat getting approx. 9-10k runs, or he can chip in with say 250 wickets. I'll agree with you.
Yes, I agree and have been saying years, our batting line up is garbage and they can't play properly. Stokes is one of those with a poor average and who makes stupid decisions much of the time.
I'll give you Kallis. Waugh was no more than a part timer who hardly bowled in his advanced years. Kallis played 160 games and only averaged 2 wickets per game and he definitely benefited from following Donald and Pollock.. So he was no mean a world class bowler. Batsmen, 100% he was one of the best ever. You're argument seems to be Stokes is overrated because he has poor stats and makes poor choices. His stats, when compared to previous world class allrounders stack up pretty well. Yes he does make boneheaded decisions. But no more than anyone else. Look what Root did in the last game for example.
The joy of stats and the difficulty of comparing genres. And even the issue of considering what an all rounder is and how to consider dominance of strength with either bat or ball. You think of Waugh and he only got 90ish wickets (but Stokes only has 130 ish so far which isn't that much considering the number of games we play now). He was more Collingwood esque in that respect, but then he got nearly 11,000 runs at over 50... and he was a great captain too. Great is over used in most areas these days. But i'd say he very much was. Kallis got nearly 300 wickets and I think averaged 55 over, another true great. And if you say Kallis benefitted from Donald and Pollock, Stokes has followed Broad and Anderson. All players make mistakes, of course they do, everyone does. And players will receive good balls and that's just the way it is. But I do think he makes extremely stupid decisions a large proportion of the time and in this batting line up in particular, he has more responsibility to bat properly. He finally did that in his second innings where he got himself in before he started slogging (which he had to do considering the other end was collapsing). I'd like him to do that more often and his batting average may improve as a result. But in the past, he's tried to set up as brigadier block, and then played a stupid shot to get out. Maybe it's his ability to think. Maybe he can't concentrate very long. Maybe his stamina impacts him. Maybe a penny has dropped and this will be a watershed moment and he can stake a claim towards being considered a very good allrounder. But at this stage, in my opinion, I can't consider him to be anything like great, during an era of mediocrity where greatness should shine much more obviously. And thank you for a respectful discussion. I appreciate that. Too often people take things to be personal rather than just having a discussion. That at the end of the day doesn't even mean anything. It's just subjectivity and personal view, which will always generate differences. So thank you.
I realise I might be prolonging this discussion, but here's another opinion on Ben Stokes. It's from Glenn McGrath, the former Australian bowler: -
He's entitled to his opinion, but there is a lot of hyperbole in that quote, which Australians are highly prone to doing, particularly after defeat. I certainly don't think he can concentrate consistently. He can certainly slog, just like Roy, Bairstow and Buttler can. And he can turn his arm over now and then. I can't really think of too many allrounders around the world aside from Shakib of Bangladesh, a very different player, but in a team used to being beaten with a better batting average and better bowling average, so surely Stokes isn't as good as Shakib if we're basing it purely on stats as most seem to want to do? But it does show how bad the current genre is doesn't it? The dog had his day. Another day and him running Buttler out costs the side, or he's out lbw, or one of his chancey slogs that he was never in control of go to a fielder, or the catch to Harris is taken. Was it a successful innings? Yes, history will show that. Will it be considered iconic in years to come, yes, I'm sure it will (though potentially forgotten if he fails to contribute to winning the Ashes). Is he a great batsmen, no. Is he a great bowler, no. Is he a very good fielder, yes. Is he an average bits and pieces cricketer, yes. Has he secured his place for a few more games, yes. Do I expect him to convert into a great bowler or batsmen, no.
He's the finest all rounder in the world today, and one of the finest of all time. I couldn't possibly be further away from your opinion, regardless of the very eloquent way you back it up. The facts, performances, stats and, most tellingly, the opinions of other world class cricketers, back this up.
You class Stokes as a lucky slogger who turns his arm over now and again? All i will say is that i am glad he plays for us and not against us.
Glenn Mcgrath thinks England were lucky. Total tripe. Had Bairstow not had that brain fart after lunch we'd have knocked em' off sooner.
I still stand by my 11 for next week if Jimmy Anderson can prove his fitness (he bowled 20 overs yesterday in a second 11 game) Roy/Buttler out Specialist opener in (Sibley) Plus Anderson and that is some bowling line up. (Archer Broad Anderson Woakes Stokes Leach) I know it means a longer tail but the Aussies will have both Smith and Labuschagne in their line up at the expense of either Kawaja or Head.
