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I THINK YOUR A COMPLETE CU.NT 99% OF THE TIME

But you've got that spot on, very well put and 100% correct in my opinion

 

I reckon that is close to nail on head ST. Excellent post.

 

Brilliant post ST and from the people I have spoken to about it you are representing 99% of the publics opinion

 

Yes Conan is a knobhead............but he's right on this one.

Too many jumping on the 'all Liverpool fans are saints' band wagon

The police did wrong to open the gates and they did extremely wrong in covering up their mistakes..........but it wasn't the police that were pushing from the back of the stand

 

It doesn't say that at all

It says drunkenness and ticketless fans weren't a factor, as it did 20+ years ago in the Taylor report if any of you lot who kept blaming Liverpool fans had bothered to read it.

That doesn't mean that no one was drinking. It means that some people were drinking but no more so than at any other social gathering and it wasn't the drinking that caused the disaster. It doesn't mean that no one turned up without tickets. It means the number of fans that turned up without tickets wasn't significant and wasn't the cause of the disaster. I don't don't know why people have such a hard time understanding that, but they clearly do.

I'm astonished that people really want to believe it was the Liverpool fans fault. With the bottom of their heart they are desperate for it to be in some way the fault of Liverpool fans and I can't for the life of me understand why.

It could have been us at Hillsborough. It could have been Barnsley fans. It could have been you or your son or daughter. We got to an FA Cup semi final not too long ago. We beat Liverpool along the way. There's no reason why that couldn't have happened in 1989. And look how many fans we took to the shiny new Wembley. 30,000+. Just as many would have wanted to go in 1989. But instead of a shiny new Wembley we'd have got a decrepit old Hillsborough. We'd have probably got the Leppings Lane End too due to us arriving from the North. And we'd have gone on mass, some of us drinking, a few without tickets, and we'd have been herded like animals in to a death trap. The Police would have opened a gate when the crush outside became life threatening due to poor crowd management and insufficient turnstiles. And we'd have all walked down that tunnel into an already packed pen because no one in charge had a clue what the hell they were doing. And we would have died in there. And as we tried to escape over the perimeter fence the Police would be pushing us back in because they thought we were trying to cause trouble. And as we lay dying on the turf there would be no ambulances to take us to hospital because the Police blocked them from entering the ground. And as our bodies piled up in the gymnasium our blood would be tested for alcohol, even the children among us. And for the next twenty years we would be blamed for our own deaths as the Police and Politicians and the Media lied and lied and lied again about what happened that day. But the real ignominy would be that fellow football fans, football fans who this could easily have happened to, football fans that had witnessed many similar incidents in the 1980s due to crumbling grounds, perimeter fencing and a Police force looking for a ruck rather than looking to protect us, these fans would still blame us even when the truth was finally out.

Some people on this site make me ******* sick.

 

Jay - top, top post. Agree 100%...

 

And no one was there to tell them the pen was full and there was room in the ones either side. Basic crowd control and a total disregard for safety. Why do you think SYP spent so much time covering things up and spreading disinformation,they knew the cause of the disaster and it wasn't a large out of control drunken ticketless mob

 

Update - a Belgian policeman coughed at Heysel and that caused the wall to fall down. The Liverpool fans were making daisy chains at the time.

 

Re: It doesn't say that at all

Not seen it put any better than that. You can't educate pork.

 

If you can't be bothered to read what was actually written re heysel CT I wouldn't bother trying to be hilariously funny with your reposte.

 

So if the stadium was a bit sturdier the scousers wouldn't have been able to push the wall down? Bet they would have had a good go though.

What about Athens? Is that another figment of UEFA's imagination?

 

Just that.

Trouble is there'll still be folk from the 'they were well known hooligans so it must have been their fault' brigade no matter what report comes out or what is proven, they misbehaved periodically through the eighties so can't possibly be innocent at Hillsborough....

I'll say one thing that the report has said that I don't quite swallow - there is 'no evidence whatsoever of any kind of cover up by the government, nor of any knowledge that a coverup occurred' - I'm not so sure that's even possible, never mind true. Let's not start on thatcher though, she gets enough airtime on here as it is.

 

Which bit? The bit where they picked a woefully too small stadium? The bit where over a thousand genuine ticket holders were refused entry without a reason being offered? The bit where water canons and batons were used against fans, some of which thought they were just standing in a queue to get in?

No, you mean the bit where the saintly UEFA, in particular that arris hole that is gaillard, saying the blame was all Liverpool fans. And nothing to do with anyone else.

It's easy to pick through the facts to back an argument to any side. I've clearly acknowledged liverpools fans as being to blame in heysel yet you still pick individual bits out to suit yourself.

I know the main problem in Athens was Liverpool fans getting into the ground with fake tickets or no ticket at all. But I ignored that in my argument above - just like you seem to ignore anything which might offer a shred of explanation or mitigation in the scousers favour. You have to admit that Athens was woefully organised by UEFA and poorly policed by the Greek authorities. Only allocating about fifteen thousand tickets to any English club in a European final is bloody stupid and asking for trouble. Doesn't excuse the behaviour of some of their fans - but it still should be said.

Serious question - has something happened to you personally to make you so strongly against them?

I've no desire to overly defend them but you seem unable to accept anything other than them being to blame for everything - that seems a bit blinkered.

 

Re: It doesn't say that at all

The reports are wrong then. They have been too busy trying to blame one party or the other to realise that rather than a cause there were many contributing factors. The simple fact that cannot be denied is that ANY ticketless fans who surged down that tunnel were one of many contributing factors. How can anyone possibly deny that?

There were no more ticketless fans than usual youre right but why does that make it right?

The difference between that game and many others was the ground design and more importantly the terribly bad decisions of the police but that doesnt stop the small number of ticketless or drunken fans from being a contributing factor.

The investigations have all looked at blame so have seeked to find one side or the other guilty and that is wrong. I'll tell you something, if the NTSB had been doing the investigation then the ticketless and drunken fans would have been listed as a factor without a doubt.

Just because something has always happened without incident doesnt mean it isnt a timebomb waiting to go off.

Root cause of the disaster was actions of the police (innocent mistakes on the day IMO) but contributing factors must have included those FEW fans.

I'm also not sure why doing alcohol tests on the dead is a bad thing provided the results are not tampered with.

 

So, you have no sympathy for a 10 year old boy and some teenage girls - amongst 96 people who got to the match in good time to get to the front of the terrace (and therefore not the cause of the crush) because ALL, EVERY SINGLE LIVERPOOL FAN YOU HAVE EVER SEEN, has been a drunken, ticketless hooligan thug: "I've seen them first hand". God, it makes me sick, quite frankly, that you can show no compassion whatsoever. It could have been me. Or you. Or your mates... that got killed that day.

 

Re: It doesn't say that at all

Jay you replied to me and although your reply was general I feel it courteous to reply back to you. I have not said, and never will say that the Liverpool fans were to blame, I believe that some Liverpool fans contributed to what happened and nothing will change my opinion on that. There were many other factors that contributed too, most of them to a larger extent but that doesn't exonerate the Liverpool fans who in my opinion contributed.

The one thing that is beyond dispute, that is a matter of fact, is that the fans who died were completely innocent and I don't think anybody could possibly not feel the utmost sympathy for them and their families. Nobody should ever go to a football match and not come home. I still find it hard to watch the events of that day without feeling emotional. I can't imagine how it must have felt for the poor souls trapped at the front or the anger and pain their families must be feeling but I can understand their desire for justice however I feel that by finding that not one Liverpool fan contributed to what happened they aren't getting justice, not indisputable justice anyway and if it was my son, daughter, brother or loved one I would want the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 

To be honest I don't think I've ever read a better post than Jay's. Anyone who can't understand that isnt worth arguing with on the subject.

People who are continuing to blame the fans or suggesting that they've somehow managed to influence the latest report to absolve themselves are starting to border on the levels of holocaust denial. How much evidence, consensus, admissions of cover up, of historical context, of public bodies publically apologising, prime minister's public statements do people need before they have the contrition to admit they may have (very reasonably given the attempted cover up) got it wrong

 

TBH I think you would have to be totally heartless to feel anything gbut complete sadness and sympathy for the poor souls who lost their lives simply going to a football match,and think that it would be better to concentrate on that aspect.
The bit that irks me and always has is when the scousers and the press put themselves up themselves up as some paragons of football and what all others should aim to be because any opposing fans who have seen them in action knows it to be complete crap.

 

What does the size of the stadium have to do with it? If it's sold out and you haven't got a ticket then you can't get in. Unless you're a Liverpool fan. "I know the main problem in Athens was Liverpool fans getting into the ground with fake tickets or no ticket at all BUT....." there are no ****ing buts. If there were only 15,000 tickets it's tough ****. You only get about 25,000 for the FA Cup final but people don't use fake tickets or even worse steal tickets from their fellow supporters.

When my Dad went to the League Cup game in the early eighties, the coach in front of him had a concrete bollard dropped through its front window from a motorway bridge. I suppose that was the council's fault for making the bollards too easy to remove. Same with Heysel. There's just too much shoddy workmanship when the Scousers are around.

Just to make things crystal clear - I have always thought that the 96 were completely innocent and their only "crime" was getting to the ground early tp get a good spot. I had also always thought that SOME Liverpool fans played their own part in the disaster. The recent disclosure suggests that was wrong and although I find it hard to believe I accept it. What I find offensive, however, is this new found attitude towards Liverpool fans where people are claiming they have never done anything wrong. People are claiming that they never sing songs about Munich for example. Utter ********. They are still the worst behaved and most obnoxious fans this country has seen and the Hillsborough verdict should not change that. Heysel still happened. They still behaved the way they did in Athens. They went robbing, thieving, stabbing and being ****s all over the country. Let's not re-write history.

 

They can find whatever they want in a report but that doesn't stop me having a brain.
Simple fact number one: The primary cause of the disaster was overcrowding (due to police mistakes etc).
Simple fact number two: There would have been less people in the pen had ticketless fans not entered.
Conclusion: Ticketless fans added to the problem, however small that addition may be they DID add to the problem and therefore ARE a contributing factor.

Now regardless of what some report says how can anyone actually disagree with that?
Fans crushed due to large crowd numbers in small area. FACT. Part of that crowd is made up of ticketless people who shouldn't have been there. FACT. Ticketless fans were a factor in the incident.