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Couldn't have put it better myself, mate

Well said.
This unbiased report has proved, once and for all, what actually happened. For people now to claim those findings are inaccurate and wrong simply beggars belief.

 

Take 4 pint glasses and 4 pints of water. Half fill 2 of the 4 pint glasses and try and pour all the remaining water in to the 2 remaining glasses and see what happens

 

Re: Couldn't have put it better myself, mate

I disagree. The report has proved some of the things that happened but it will never prove everything that happened because some things simply cannot be proven and checked after the event.

For example they can prove that officer x pushed a fan back into the crowd but they cannot prove one way or the other if every one of those fans in the crowd had a ticket. You simply can't do it after the event when large numbers entered without showing tickets (because the police opened the gates). If not everybody had their ticket stubs taken off them then you can't 100% say for sure that every fan had or didnt have a ticket.

It is my opinion that the finding into what DID happen in yes or no scenarios is accurate but the findings of what happened with regards exactly who did or didn't have tickets is speculation and will never be proved because it can't be proved after the event. It's a bit like trying to prove now exactly how many people each soldier in WW2 killed. You simply can't do it. You can say that x amount of people were shot and that x amount of people were there with guns but you'll never be able to prove 100% how many people were killed by each soldier because even at the time I doubt they all knew and after the event it is impossible to check.

I've read the report and I stand by my opinion that a SMALL number of ticketless fans did contribute to the disaster but they were not the primary cause of it.

I think I know why the report claims it wasn't anything to do with ticketless fans and that is because the police claimed thousands were there and lumped all the blame onto them so the investigation quite rightly looked at that and could easily prove that such a large number were not ticketless but in doing so the report fails to recognise that a FEW were there and fails to recognise their (small) contribution. This is the police's own fault for attempting to wrongly lay all the blame at their feet so the report has swung completely in the opposite direction.

One thing that I note however is that ticketless fans from previous games and liverpool fans hooligan element from previous games undoubtedly led to the police's strategy being focused on crowd control not crowd safety. Their previous behaviour caused the polices focus to be drawn to that on the matchday which ultimately led to a lot of the bad decisions made by the police. In that respect I feel that previous behaviour at other games was also a contributing factor to the disaster and not just liverpool fans either, fans of many clubs.

 

Take 4 pint glasses and 4 pints of water plus 2 teaspoons of milk. Half fill 2 of the 4 pint glasses and try and pour all the remaining water in to the 2 remaining glasses. Now pour in the 2 teaspoons of milk too and see what happens.

By the way i've read the report and in it's conclusion it says this

the Panel found no evidence among the vast number of disclosed documents and many hours of video material to verify the serious allegations of exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans. There was no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium and force entry and no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying. Documents show that fans became frustrated by the inadequate response to the unfolding tragedy. The vast majority of fans on the pitch assisted in rescuing and evacuating the injured and the dead.

That to me talks about LARGE numbers of ticketless fans and says there is no evidence to suggest that large numbers were involved but it doesn't say that NO ticketless fans were involved.

 

Take ticketless fans and alcohol out of the equation on that day

And the end result would have been the same.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree

The panel looked at all the available evidence and pointed out that ticketless fans were not a significant factor into the events. In other words, if everyone who turned up had a ticket and no one had had a drink, the outcome would have been the same.

 

That post

Should be made a sticky and everyone who is registered or wishes to register on here should have to read it.

Nothing sums it up better than that.

There is no more to be said, really. Sorry but if you cannot understand what happened and why then there really is no point. I don't like 'scousers' - never have, never will, have my reasons - but they didn't cause their own deaths or the deaths of their fellow fans that day. Human beings were killed due to the ineffectiveness and downright incompetence of the authorities. And those same authorities then set about covering their arses and lying to blame the ones killed and the other fans there. I swallowed that story because of my inbuilt prejudices. I was wrong and I hang my head in shame.

If you can't empathise and sympathise with your fellow human beings over this incident then there really is nothing more to say.

 

No sympathy for a child of 10. Just look at the ****ing clowns on here.

 

Re: Take ticketless fans and alcohol out of the equation on that day

Note to self, read other contributions before posting. You worded it better, too.

 

Re: We'll have to agree to disagree

Exactly, it found they weren't a significant factor, it didn't find that they weren't a factor at all because they were. As I've said previously, the largest proportion of blame has to go to the police, SWFC, the FA and Sheffield council however I feel a small small share must go to a tiny percentage of fans.

What I honestly do believe though is that not one person there on that day intended to cause the death of anyone, not the police, not the ambulance service, not SWFC, the FA or the council and certainly not the fans. It was a collection of bad decisions by a large number of people with the vast majority of those people being those in authority and only a tiny percentage being liverpool fans. What is absolutely clear though is that the 96 who died and virtually all, if not all the liverpool fans were completely innocent in what happened and that is the great shame.

As you say we'll have to agree to disagree whether or not the ticketless few contributed to the disaster and agree that ultimately the police response to events that unfolded that day were the main cause.

 

I don't think he is talking about the victims, I think he is talking (rightly or wrongly) about the liverpool fans of today.

 

Exactly that

.