Canadian freedom convoy

Mate, do not engage with this fascist idiot. He is beyond help.

 

So; it seems you don’t like that I’m using ‘facts’ against your world view based on ‘personality politics’.
It strikes me that you should step back and look at ‘politics’ from the view of what’s actually happening in the world.

And for balance, I say the same things to the Corbynistas living in an alternate universe where losing two GE’s doesn’t make someone redundant

It’s an actual ‘fact’ that the US and the U.K. are moving to the right at high speed, and it’s completely incorrect to state the opposite.

 

My favourite genre - centrists still trying to act like crowing about your second point doesn't move us inexorably towards the third. I'm sure the penny will drop eventually.

(Sorry, this just felt like a really exciting thread and I felt I needed to get in on it!)

 

Is that actually correct? It was correct a few years ago, since then Biden won the presidency in the US and I believe Boris is on his last legs. There was a huge shift to the right during the twenty teens, but we may well have hit peak now. It always goes in circles and I genuinely believe it's coming back the other way now.

 

If it goes in circles, when do you reckon we'll get back to 1945?

 

Separation of church and state

 

Sorry I thought you'd posted this...

Apologies for believing that to be the case; it's clear that's not what you think.

 

Funnily enough those "muh constitution" patriotic types are happy to ignore the fact that the USA is a secular state (I think the first explicitly secular state, but I might be wrong)

 

Appears?
So workers rights, the balance of wealth and immigration law are just 'appearing' to have moved to the right?
OK

 

Sadly I'm a West Wing addict.

 

Probably never, but in 1997 we saw the introduction of the minimum wage and working families tax credit and although that isn't as eye catching as the NHS and the welfare state, it was still a hell of a thing. And if the parliamentary labour party had supported Corbyn a few years ago, so that some of middle England would have come out and voted for him, we would have been experiencing similar now. There were enough young people giving support and it was bloody close. So no, we maybe won't see such a seismic shift as that again, but there are still millions of young people, our future, who don't vote Tory Fascist Rubbish.

 

Yes, I'm not talking personalities.
Are immigration rights in a worse state now than in 2000 in either country? Yes
Are employment rights in a worse state? Yes
Has the balance of wealth moved massively to the super rich? Yes
Are human rights generally being diminished? Yes
Are women's rights worse? Yes

One of the problems with the current younger generation (politically) is that they get wrapped up in the minutiae of personality politics - and completely overlook the wider view of what's actually happening to real peoples lives. Workers are getting poorer, the rich are getting richer, and the government's answer is to ask the poor to politely suck it up and pretend they don't understand that there's an alternative way.

(see above where I get labelled a 'centrist' for daring to criticise Corbynistas), I'm to the left of Corbyn on many issues, but... my ideal labour leader has to be simply the one furthest left that has a chance of being elected.

 

Yes they are. Because we've had a right wing government for over 10 years. You said things were moving to the right at high speed. I said that maybe isn't the case, that it was the case and that is why we are where we are, why we have all the examples you gave. Nothing to do with personality politics, we had a right wing government. We're no longer moving that way, we're already here, and I believe we're about to undergo a change that moves it back. We're certainly not accelerating towards the right wing, we've been here for a long time.

 

As we sit here writing this a crime bill is making its way through Parliament that disadvantages minorities.
This very week, the government overturned a bill to help the poor, whilst reducing taxes on bankers profits. The government gifted a ‘loan’ to the fuel companies that you and me are going to pay back.
If you think the move to the right is ‘in the past’ you’re not watching.

 

I'm clearly not saying it's in the past, and I don't understand why you're arguing. We still have the right wing government in power. I'm saying it's not accelerating towards the right. Terrible things won't stop happening until they're out, but that won't happen until the next general election or they self-implode, which is looking ever more likely. What certainly isn't happening is that they're gathering more and more support. Even members of their own party are deserting them. They're on their last legs and it's coming to an end.

 

Trudeau is an easy (and often deserving) target but it's not really about him, just like it's not really about masks, mandates, or vaccines.

My personal opinion is that the freedom convoy is an organized disturbance designed to give voice to a group of people who are aggrieved because they have realized that they no longer have the electoral clout to see their preferred party or candidates in positions of true power, their policies or priorities implemented, or their views and opinions accommodated by the majority of Canadians.

 

Great question. I should have qualified my reference to irrelevance when posting. I can see why you read it the way you did.

The protest is certainly relevant to the people in Ottawa. I almost moved there and I know quite a few people living downtown. They can’t sleep, they can’t work. Chores and errands are tough to impossible. Many stores closed. I was told there are no deliveries, no buses, no cabs downtown. Police have not enforced basic laws, though seem to be starting to now.

• One couple I know had to leave – toddler twins can’t stomach the constant air horns and honking all day and all night and they all had to walk about ten kilometres to be able to catch a cab to leave the city.
• Another had their six- and three-year old children accosted by protestors for wearing masks.
• A third was followed home and heckled.
• A bit arms length, but a friend of a friend has a twitter thread about an attempted arson in an apartment building.

And those are just my anecdotes. Add all the stuff we've already touched on. Ambulances blocked, health care workers intimidated, journalists threatened, people being prevented from getting on the LRT unless they remove their masks, disrespect of monuments, racist and violent signs, QAnon, the manifesto to take down the government. And then there are the Nazis. Yes, Nazis.

It’s a complete, as they would say in Gatineau, show de shiat.

Certainly the protest is relevant to the people and the economy of Ottawa. And of course it’s all over the news.

Hence Trudeau's intervention with the funding.

You can't teargas a truck. Tow truck companies will not risk staff and infrastructure. Police will not intervene to disperse a mob that can commandeer a truck.

There is an intense fear of this going sideways – all it takes is one mad protester or bad police officer and you could have a riot, someone using a truck as a weapon, lighting gas supplies on fire … and this goes from horns in the streets to blood in the streets. It’s why the use of the trucks is so brilliant.

I'm not sure what's underhanded about it - every one is getting refunds - but cutting off the funding is the way to break up the protest.

My reference to irrelevance was to the idea of this representing a broader movement or shift in Canadian society. It does not. This is not staid and fusty Canadians finally rising up. This protest has almost zero broad societal support.

Are Canadians sick of COVID? Every single one. There is immense support for masks, vaccines, passports, and mandates. People see them less as impingements on liberty and more as the way toward freedom.

(Canada is extremely highly vaccinated (90% of eligible persons.) My province recently ended another “lock down” that was spurred, in large part, by popular demand. People regularly wear masks out of doors. Masks often stay on in restaurants unless people are eating (capacity still limited near me, btw.) Some kids in my son's hockey league play in masks. You had to wake up in the middle of the night to get your preferred vaccine appointments demand was so high. Many parents consented to second doses for kids before the recommended interval had elapsed. Are there pockets of opposition? Of course, largely sub-regional and often religious. But otherwise the support is ubiquitous.)

This protest has done nothing but hurt the anti-mask/vax/mandate (take your pick) movement. That’s not a personal political opinion – it’s just the reality here.

Polling has shown that support for the trucker vaccine mandate has increased since the protest started. Two days ago a survey showed 50%+ support for mandatory vaccines for children 5 and under - for which a vaccine isn’t even available!

So yes, the protest is largely irrelevant to Canadian society beyond the immediate and ongoing inconvenience for Ottawans (is that a word?) It’s not about freedom or liberty. It’s not a public debate on government overreach. It is not about taking down a terrible Prime Minister (heck, it has probably solidified his wobbly support.)

As mentioned in an earlier post, it’s about a small group of privileged people realizing their views are fringe and uninfluential - and so they’re letting out the first of many primal screams. And it is certainly a loud scream. But for every wolf you hear howl in the woods, there are thousands and thousands of animals just going about their business.

Please understand - I don’t care what your position is. I don’t mean that rudely. I mean it out of respect. It's just not my concern.

I generally stay out of political threads because they’re largely useless. People mostly only post in them to build up their confidence in the views they want to hold.

But I encourage you not to take solace in this protest. Think twice about reading into it and supporting it. Because it has very minimal support in Canadian society. It’s very likely not about what you want it to be about. And it’s hurting support for the position you may care for.