Caroline Flint

I was of the opinion they shouldn't have called or voted for an election until Brexit was sorted and the Tories owned it. Unfortunately there weren't the numbers for the Tory Party to get it through.

 

i can see where you are coming from but with a majority that big it will be difficult to pin any blame on any other party, if the tories make a complete ****** of things and labour are unable to take advantage then it really is time to take stock of who's controlling their party and policies

 

Down in amongst the streets tonight
Books will burn, people laugh and cry in their turmoil
(Turmoil turns rejoiceful)
Shed your fears and lose your guilt
Tonight we burn responsibility in the fire
We'll watch the flames grow higher
But if you get too burnt, you can't come back home
And as I was standing by the edge
I could see the faces of those who led pissing themselves laughing
(And the flames grew)
Their mad eyes bulged, their flushed faces said
The weak get crushed as the strong grow stronger
We feast on flesh and drink on blood
Live by fear and despise love in a crises
(What with today's high prices)
Bring some paper and bring some wood
Bring what's left of all your love for the fire
We'll watch the flames grow higher!
But if you get too burnt, you can't come back home
And as I was standing by the edge
I could see the faces of those who led pissing themselves laughing
(And the flames grew)
Their mad eyes bulged their flushed faces said
The weak get crushed as the strong grow stronger

 

i've seen quite a few interviews with Caz Flint over the past few months and years since the referendum and imo had the party took more of a direction in line with her thinking then they would not have been hammered by the tories.

 

You're right that it's not Labour's fault, it was the ERG/DUP that effectively scuppered May's Brexit deal...but having said that it was within Labour's power to back that soft deal, as a small number did, and outmanouvre the hard brexiteers....leaving a weak May Government to be picked off pretty soon. My guess is that as things have transpired quite a few will be wishing they had.

 

Now that is an outcome that is literally impossible to predict.

mays withdrawal agreement set no long term agenda and once enacted could have gone in any direction. Describing it as ‘soft’ is IMHO just reiterating the ERG description which was largely based on the uncertainty and timescales.

 

Can I ask?

when did you last vote Labour?

 

From what I've read over the last day or two from Labour MP's comments, the main drivers of the change in policy from implementing a Labour deal as in the 2017 manifesto, to a second referendum position, were Keir Starmer and Emily Thornberry....according to Trickett, Northern MP's warnings were ignored....and it seems to have been a conscious decision to risk losing northern town's to retain London and other cities.
Starmer for some reason then took virtually no part in the campaign.
As you point out, they chose the wrong demographic.

 

The irony is that Mays deal is pretty much what we will end up with . Johnson's deal is 95% the same . Might have well gone along with it then let the tories rip themselves apart , instead the opposite has happened .

 

A bye product of third way politics pioneered by Blair / shroeder / Clinton etc who moved to the centre in the 90s chasing middle class votes and abandoned their traditional support . Sadly that middle class died in 2008 though labour seemed to believe it still existed and that those voters were in the most part remain voters . The narrative that many leavers were "racist" or "xenophobic" merely compounded the disconnect between party and voter . Ironically traditional labour voters never wanted a referendum , but were asked and gave their opinion . On reflection the 5 million or so labour leavers did have their finger on the pulse of public opinion but as with the aforementioned third way politics were largely ignored .

 

Well that’s all very interesting but can I suggest you’re putting forward your opinion as fact which, forgive me, should get you a job on the Daily Mail.

My opinion (not facts)
1. If Labour supporters abandoned the Party because of the Brexit stance, that was entirely understandable. The policy was ridiculous, both from a Socialist principle and a political one.
2. If Labour supporters abandoned the Party because of Corbyn, then even though I wouldn’t agree with that, I can entirely understand why some would.
3. If Labour supporters abandoned the Party because they thought the policies were too radical, you’re not a Labour supporter and have been supporting the wrong party for some time. It’s not the party for you. If you’ve found another Party, well done.

Don’t take part in the debate on the future of the Party.

 

Just to pick up on this central point - it's acknowledged fact that a majority in this country are in favour of state ownership of rail and utilities. Only the right wing press (and some of it's unquestioning readership) and the core of the Tory party are against it.

It still gets discussed as radical and dogmatic - whilst bizarrely many of our railways and much of our infrastructure is being run by companies that are part state owned by our neighbours. It's not dogmatic to insist on private ownership against the will of the majority - but reversing that trend to bring us into line with all our neighbours and competitors is dogmatic?

 

First time Blair got in, ( possibly second) what’s that got to do with it? I was just quoting facts

 

Not facts - opinions.

And to put your opinions into context it's important to know where on the political spectrum those opinions emanate.

Now we know

 

You’re delusional you know that? Did you actually read / watch / listen to all the reasons given by Labour voters , respected MP’s and commentators after Thursdays bloodbath, Alan Johnson ripped the Momentum guy apart.
Its attitudes like yours that are going to keep Labour in the doldrums for years to come!

O

 

You have no idea what I think - I'm not the one jumping to conclusions

 

Really?? that’s exactly what you were doing!

 

I asked a question - I always feel it's necessary to get 'facts' before forming opinions. It's the grown up thing to do.

You can look back and you'll see I was never a fan of Corbyn, though I'm a lifelong Labour voter - out of choice not habit. And I'm old enough to find where the land lies before I begin to start looking for conclusions.

 

No you accused me of quoting opinions not facts, when in fact the stuff I said was widely quoted available from multiple sources.Then you stuck the smiley emoji on the end of it

 

As Alistair Campbell rightly pointed out if Johnson goes the full five year term the only labour leader to have won a GE in the last 50 years will be Tony Blair he than said to Corbyns cult leader Jon Lansman when will it get through your thick skulls that hard left labour don't win elections and you know what he's right. Corbyn was never going to win and the only people who wouldn't accept that fact were his cult members who have sadly taken over the Labour party and unless they accept they are the problem and change or leave the labour party will just be a protest movement never a government. Problem is that's what some off them would love to happen.