Davey "a broken man" after reds departure

RE: Well said Dirk

Football is a mans game, a contact sport that should be full of passion, power and to some degree, controlled aggression. If you don't like "macho" sports and attitudes, you should try watching Netball or summat.

 

Well I'm a "broken fan"...and have been for a while especially...

...after coming into work yet again this morning taking abuse from colleagues that little old Barnsley are bottom of the league and the bookie's favourite for relegation.

Simon, thanks for the effort but sorry, it was time for a change.

Bobby's statement outlines one of the fundamental errors of a poor leader, being too close to your men.

 

Definately too pally with certain players

Who else would persist with oddjob for so long??

 

RE: Well said Dirk

I think you're missing the point.

We are not bottom of the league because we don't have aggression. Nor, in my opinion have we lacked passion under Davey. Certainly the cup games were an example of this and there's been numerous occasions when we've got a crucial result against the odds.

What we have lacked is brains. There's been no planning since the beginning of the season (and that's not all Daveys fault) All this 'leaner squad' rubbish for example, it's painfully obvious we lacked cover in nearly all positions. In addition to that we've lacked a manager with some tactical awareness. I've lost count of the number of managers who've out thought Davey at Oakwell with very similar ability in their squad.

It's very easy to say let's have the players bleeding after training. I'd rather take a more sensible approach and have a manager who knows what he's on about so we don't have a repeat of Saturdays debacle. Besides, there's only so much of the sergeant major approach that players will take, see Gary Megson as an example.

 

RE: Well said Dirk

It is not so much that I am saying we need a sergeant major type manager, it is Hassels apparent fear of us getting that type of manager in. You can understand why comments like this get the fans backs up for sure.

 

RE: Well said Dirk

Not really, Bobby Hassell is one of the most committed and honest professionals we've had at Oakwell for years. I don't for one minute doubt his application in training or matches so I don't see how appointing a strict disciplinarian would help his game.

To be honest I see it as nothing more than speaking fondly of a manager the players obviously liked. A bloke has lost his job, it's not exactly going to be party time at Oakwell. It's arguably not helpful to come out in the press but I'd rather them do it now and then shut up and focus when the new manager comes in...(which I'm sure is what is will happen)

 

RE: Well said Dirk

I think if you look back over a number of performances a lack of discipline has been there to be seen by anyone. What about the missed penalty incident against Forest last year with the petulant 'I'll take it', 'no I'll take it' confrontation between JCR and Andranik?

What about on Saturday - ok so a dubious penalty was given against us - but we're still at sixes and sevens arguing the toss when they're scoring a third from open play within a minute. Completely unprofessional and completely unacceptable.

All of this is important stuff. It's not just about 'being macho' - it's about being professional, it's about having quality leadership, and it's about installing values and principles in players that can win you or lose you matches - and in our case, keep you up or send you down.

How many last minute/last ten minutes goals did we conceed last season? From lame arsed defending and a casual mistake. You can count them up - it was infuriating. Wolves at home - we're one nil up and we give it away first by allowing a winger to get past his man and get the ball across, not just to the front post, but across the goal keeper and to the back post (that two centre halves and a goalkeeper, as well as the full back) only for them to have the first man to the ball to tap it away. And how many times did we see that?

Swansea at home last year - they get a shot from twenty five yards, goes narrowly wide. We let them do it a second time and they score from it. Add in two further mistakes for the other goals that buried us at home.

It's about discipline and focus. The words in that article do not tell me that the players were getting it. The performances on the pitch did not tell me that they were getting it. Ok so a good deal of it also involved the players themselves knowing what they are supposed to be doing (and maybe they didn't for alot of the time - can forgive them that under the circumstances of Davey's quality tactics) BUT at the same time it's about personal expectations too and whether or not that is instilled by the gaffer.

 

RE: There's a difference

Agree with you that the casual abuse that comes out of ignorant frustration is not acceptable the 'welsh this that and the other' stuff is out of order - but every fan has had the entitlement to vent their criticism on what they've been seeing under Simon Davey. They might not be right in the detail of what they say - but they have every right to say the way they see it.

 

RE: Well said Dirk

I think you're right in what you say about Davey being out of his depth - I'm sure that he was all just a bit too much for him. But players need to have discipline - self discipline is not the same thing, even with model professionals. Let's say that Bobby Hassell is a model professional, they won't all be throughout the squad top to bottom, and I dare say one or two of them might be a lot less than professional and a lot less than committed, even if they say the opposite. Statistically it is bound to be true. In any group of players or other professionals you'll have one or two who are capable of driving themselves on passionately and do their own motivation and discipline - but they are the rare exceptions, especially in an environment which is full of the distractions of being young, earning six figure salaries and having all your mates earn six figure salaries also.

Let's put it this way, if they do get a Sgt Major come in who kicks them twelve feet up in the air they'll have bloody earned because nobody is convincing me that they have all been model professionals since this seasons has begun.

Personally the sentiment in that article is all wrong - it's pitiful. You look across the best managers in the game - there's not many that would have any time for that kind of sentimentality.

 

RE: Well said Dirk

Some fair points there.

My point is that I don't know what goes on behind the scenes. I don't know how pally Davey was with the players, I don't know how hard he worked them in training. All I can go on is what I see at Oakwell every other Saturday. And from that, in my opinion over the last couple of seasons under Davey I've seen no notable lack of discipline(odd example aside, Andranik penalty thing is a fair point) or commitment. I saw the horrendous performances under Spackman and Parkin so I know what players not trying looks like.

What I have seen is a lack of organisation and planning. We've gone from an innefective 'tight' 4-4-2 with one winger and that the fans all hated. Ironically, this was probably our most effective formation. Since then I've seen us ripped apart playing 4-4-2 with proper wingers, the bizarre 4-3-3 as seen on Saturday and a general lack of communication between the manager and his players. I suspect half the time they didn't know where they were playing.

When you're losing it's very easy to cite 'fitness' as an issue. Which I think is B*ll*cks as you're going to look more unfit if you're running round after the opposition all game. It's also convenient to identify a lack of discipline. There's some great pros in our squad and very few who have been tossing it off in my opinion.

Different managers have different approaches. I wouldn't say we particularly needed a strict 'kick up the backside' manager, we just need a good manager. Mourinho for example had a great rapport with his players, see Drogba bleating when he got the chop. Ritchie was by all accounts a soft touch but he got us out of the hell that was League 1.

 

fair enough

Agree with what you say about leadership and the need for discipline. That means you need someone who knows what they are doing and can get the players to take responsibility for their part in achieving whatever plan is in place. The macho stuff that I was on about is the "kick up the arse" "sergeant major" shouting and bauling at people. Somebody also talked about the need for fear - just doesn't work in a team situation. Out of all the prospective managers how many would apply for the job saying that they wanted to create fear and would do this by cowing the players into submission?
Discipline comes with respect. How can anyone respect a bully?

 

RE: Well said Dirk

Point of view. Chopper Harris, Vinnie Jones or John Terry, Rio Ferdinand. I'll watch football - you dream of thuggery.

 

How much the job meant to him is irrelevant

It boils down to whether he was good enough at it.

Relegation contenders 3 years running - OK we survived but that is bare-minimum, certainly as far as my expectations go.

After 3 seasons in the Championship we should be trying to better ourselves and I think the board's backing for the last couple of years has reflected that.
Nevertheless, we have made no progress. He joined us as relegation fodder, left us as relegation fodder and we've looked like little else in between. Yes, we could do worse - we could get someone in who loses a relegation battle which Davey did not do - but Davey has shown that nowhere is as far as he can take us. I can't fault the board for having the ambition to take the attendant gamble and have a punt on someone else.

Here's hoping it come off.

 

i think you will find "give them a kick up the arse" were the exact words of a certain Mr Davey

and he used them in a press conference with Radio Sheffield. It was was one night this last week - possibly before the reading cup game...?

Davey's idea of a kick up the arse to a player was to play JCR in their position

 

RE: fair enough

Fear is a motivational factor - bullying is the worst application of fear as a motivational factor, and the two do not have to exist together. bullying is abusive and clumsy. It has no part to play in management.

Theory X and Theory Y - having a stick and a carrot. It's basic management. It's not a fluffy world out there in competitive sports - it's a hard world. They have all the carrot they can take - massive salaries regardless of how they perform, no doubt they have wonderful homes to go to, flash cars etc. The whole situation has to be balanced - if they have all this quite unconditionally why would they ever bother getting out of bed (because they want to keep it - fear of loss)?

One or two of the players may have a genuine affection for the club - but very few actually love the club and get out of bed for the club and nothing more. They have to have something there that regards what happens if they don't perform, what happens if they don't deliver - that makes them sit themselves down and sort themselves out - it can be self discipline, it can moral values, it can be personal expectation, it can be embarressment, it can be whatever the hell it needs to be, but it has to be there. Fear comes into this (fear - not bullying) because everyone has fear.

You look at a player who would give the likes of Brian Clough or Alex Ferguson a poor performance - maybe they just had a bad day at the office, maybe they didn't look after themselves the night before - whatever it is they know that when they're going to leave the pitch they're going to get the hair dryer, and they're going to get beasted in training. They won't look forward to it, and they'll do everything they can to stop themselves from getting into that position. They know it's the same for everyone - no favourites, no bullying, no victimisation. It gives them steel and it gives them discipline. And they get rewarded by a substantial salary, a wonderful lifestyle, and the respect and adoration of thousands. If they're really good, they'll get silverware. The whole combination makes it all worthwhile.

Some of the oldest management doctrines in existance regard the fact that in any situation where people are to be governed, fear plays an integral part (and by that I do not mean the stomach churning constant dread and anxiety - I mean a healthy and natural amount of fear and respect). It has been written that it is always safer to be feared than loved, but it is never wise to be hated. That's the balance. Nothing remotely macho in it.

 

Spot on, starting to see where other problems are, we have a bunch of soft players who want wrapping

 

didnt Davey & Cryne introduce performance related pay at BFC? nt

 

It's all subjective

What you and I or the other users of this bbs consider to be fair or not may be two wholly different things.</p>

I've made the point before that there's a lot worse said in The Groggers but stuff on here is in print.</p>

Players/Managers do their best - if it's not good enough then that's it but at times on here you'd think Davey had killed a litter of kittens and shat on Rev Tiverton Preedy's grave with some of the stuff aimed at him. It's extended lately to Cryne - who isn't above criticism, but a bit of perspective on what would have happened had he not got us out of the clutches of The Sterling Consortium et al wouldn't go amiss.</p>

All my opinion like.</p>

 

RE: There's a difference

Personal abuse is there to amplify how strongly some one feels unfortunately, we've all said things we have regreted, but at the time to demonstrate how strongly you feel you through in a couple of personals, it's life and what failing managers have to deal with.

 

Wow

An extremely eloquent and substantial argument. That sort of thing doesn't belong on here.

You've made many good points, but I can't agree with your initial argument that it's time for Bobby Hassell to leave the club. He's an extremely committed and professional player who always gives 100% and is anything but a wimp. Having emotions off the field of play and sharing them in an interview has nothing to do with a player's ability to give his all in a game. Bobby Hassell does not have the natural talent of many championship players but his commitment and dedication have made him very competent at this level.